Liam

Grandma Unleashed her t*ts again!

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Clearly M polarizes opinions and that's great, as long as it's done with respect and, most of all, intelligence. She has always said she wants to push buttoms and make people think and discuss about different ways to see the same things. She enjoys being ambivalent. Umberto Eco said there's never one way to look at things but many. That's enriching and nurturing

 

What's intelligent and respectful clearly differs from people to people though. Such is life.  :heart:  :rainbow:

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It is simple. If you tell Madonna that she should not do something, she will do it more and more.

That is definitely true.  She's always been like this, but now it seems she is purposely trying to be polarizing and turn people off.  Yet, I don't think she is being too serious.

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What's intelligent and respectful clearly differs from people to people though. Such is life.  :heart:  :rainbow:

You are a relativist. Lol what if some members says M has not been intelligent with her recent choices? Are you going to say the same thing, that they are right 'cause intelligence is relative?

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That is definitely true.  She's always been like this, but now it seems she is purposely trying to be polarizing and turn people off.  Yet, I don't think she is being too serious.

I think you're right. The word I'd use is agressive. She seems upset

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You are a relativist. Lol what if some members says M has not been intelligent with her recent choices? Are you going to say the same thing, that they are right 'cause intelligence is relative?

 

Madonna has proven her intelligence by being able to back up her actions and ideals, which is something a lot of people out there could learn from.

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I think you're right. The word I'd use is agressive. She seems upset

Nah, I think she's just yanking people's chains!  This is part of who she is.  She purposely does things when she knows it will get people riled up and get people talking... especially about her.  Much like what I did with the name of this thread.  I knew some people would take offense to it. But at the same time, it grabs people's attention.  Sometimes people do things just to be a bit mischievous, yet they don't mean any harm nor does it mean they are mad.  

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Simple. If you are going to post a pic of your breast, then the message should be clear. The message here is confusing. Is she lonely? Is she wanting attention? What is it?

 

I have no problems with anyone of any age getting their rock melons out, but be clear about the intention.

 

But maybe it's me and others who are confused, if she were a man, doing the same pose, no one would care....

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Simple. If you are going to post a pic of your breast, then the message should be clear. The message here is confusing. Is she lonely? Is she wanting attention? What is it?

 

I have no problems with anyone of any age getting their rock melons out, but be clear about the intention.

 

But maybe it's me and others who are confused, if she were a man, doing the same pose, no one would care....

Or maybe you're taking it a bit too serious?  Isn't it possible she just likes to get her tits out just to get people like you riled up?  LOL!  

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Simple. If you are going to post a pic of your breast, then the message should be clear. The message here is confusing. Is she lonely? Is she wanting attention? What is it?

I have no problems with anyone of any age getting their rock melons out, but be clear about the intention.

But maybe it's me and others who are confused, if she were a man, doing the same pose, no one would care....

I have never seen any straight man shy of sixty flashing his dick. Stop using that stupid alibi "If she were a man...". The very success of Madonna proves that this whole sexism thing is nonexistent. I don't see what she is complaining about. Now is she a feminist? After all the backlash she got from them in her early years? Well guys, I remember. I think this feminism thing is pure media hype. I'm sorry but I'm pissed off about the shit men are getting lately and it's becoming dangerous, destructive and ominous.

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Madonna has proven her intelligence by being able to back up her actions and ideals, which is something a lot of people out there could learn from.

Who do you have in mind? Politicians?

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I have never seen any straight man shy of sixty flashing his dick. Stop using that stupid alibi "If she were a man...". The very success of Madonna proves that this whole sexism thing is nonexistent. I don't see what she is complaining about. Now is she a feminist? After all the backlash she got from them in her early years? Well guys, I remember. I think this feminism thing is pure media hype. I'm sorry but I'm pissed off about the shit men are getting lately and it's becoming dangerous, destructive and ominous.

 

That's a bit like saying that the record sales aren't in decline because Adele's last album shifted 20 million copies - it's clearly an exception. In Madonna's case, sexism and misogyny have been so blatant from the very early days of her career only a blind or wilfully ignorant person could deny that. For example, when George Michael released his first solo album he was immediately hailed as a genius and seen as a peer to Prince, Michael Jackson, Elton John, etc. Every possible award and universal acclaim followed. It took Madonna SIXTEEN FUCKING YEARS to win an album-related Grammy award. Didn't matter how much "True Blue" sold or how critically-praised "Like A Prayer" was - she was deemed respectful and worthy of the establishment's approval only after having a baby and toning down her sexual image. A kick-ass album didn't hurt either obviously. I'm not denying the genius of George Michael, I love him, but the disparity in his and Madonna's treatment is pretty obvious. And that's just one example. 

 

Just because something doesn't affect you personally it does not mean it's a media hype.  :stare:

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That's a bit like saying that the record sales aren't in decline because Adele's last album shifted 20 million copies - it's clearly an exception. In Madonna's case, sexism and misogyny have been so blatant from the very early days of her career only a blind or wilfully ignorant person could deny that. For example, when George Michael released his first solo album he was immediately hailed as a genius and seen as a peer to Prince, Michael Jackson, Elton John, etc. Every possible award and universal acclaim followed. It took Madonna SIXTEEN FUCKING YEARS to win an album-related Grammy award. Didn't matter how much "True Blue" sold or how critically-praised "Like A Prayer" was - she was deemed respectful and worthy of the establishment's approval only after having a baby and toning down her sexual image. A kick-ass album didn't hurt either obviously. I'm not denying the genius of George Michael, I love him, but the disparity in his and Madonna's treatment is pretty obvious. And that's just one example. 

 

Just because something doesn't affect you personally it does not mean it's a media hype.  :stare:

The USA is very, VERY puritanical in the way they relate to sex in general. When she started out she made use of sex which not at all accepted at the time and took everybody by surprise. Of course she was going to get bad press: she wasn't behaving the way "middle America expected. Moralism has nothing to do with sexism. You are confusing terms. But in spite of that she went on to sell millions and was extremely successful. I mean, her career was not truncated even after she published Sex. 

On the other hand, I don't see why she would be interested to be accepted by the establishment when all she has ever done was against the establishment. That's double-standard. It's like "I attack the establishment because it doesn't accept me" or when ugly people attack good-looking people, deeming them dumb.

And what does George Michael has to do wirth all this?? 

I don't see why everybody here took the feminist cause in stride, like it's personal. It astonishes me. 

 

I wonder why we are disgressing so much.

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The USA is very, VERY puritanical in the way they relate to sex in general. When she started out she made use of sex which not at all accepted at the time and took everybody by surprise. Of course she was going to get bad press: she wasn't behaving the way "middle America expected. Moralism has nothing to do with sexism. You are confusing terms. But in spite of that she went on to sell millions and was extremely successful. I mean, her career was not truncated even after she published Sex. 

On the other hand, I don't see why she would be interested to be accepted by the establishment when all she has ever done was against the establishment. That's double-standard. It's like "I attack the establishment because it doesn't accept me" or when ugly people attack good-looking people, deeming them dumb.

And what does George Michael has to do wirth all this?? 

I don't see why everybody here took the feminist cause in stride, like it's personal. It astonishes me. 

 

I wonder why we are disgressing so much.

You're right "morals" play a huge part in why Madonna is beaten down, but the fact is those same moral standards are not held up for men.  Women seem to be beaten down more for whatever they do "morally" wrong than men.  That's where sexism comes in.  It's just not about her being sexy and getting naked.  She accomplished a lot of great things along the way, and men have accomplished far less than she and awarded for their accomplishment.  The George Michael analogy that @@kesiak mentioned is a perfect example.  David Bowie would be a perfect example since he pushed a lot of boundaries as well, but he didn't get half the shit that Madonna gets.  It seems people get over it quicker with men, yet while with women they drag them through the mud until their dying day.  And sadly, it's other women who are doing the dragging down.  So yes, men seem to get a pass when women don't as much. 

 

I do think that is changing though.  Women especially with all the "Times Up" and "Metoo" movements,  they are starting to get more respect.  There is no doubt Madonna has helped paved the way, even though she will not get any credit for the ongoing movements going on today.  But the fact is; she's been fighting for women to be recognized for their accomplishments all through her career. 

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OK @@Liam, but straight men have rarely used sex in their careers, let alone posing naked. Come on. Women have an exhibitionist and flamboyant side which is shared with gay/bi men IMO. No offense

 

As for Me too and all that, I think it's out of control, and it's ruining a lot of men's lives who cannot defend themselves. It's very hard to prove abuse and harrassment in court. I think  it's causing more damage than benefits. Everybody gets defensive, men are paranoid, lawyers are happy, the media even more, etc. Flirting and coutship and seduction are in danger. We men are now fearful of women, which is crazy mate, crazy. Thank God the kind of women I attract are never feminists and the women I'm attracted to are never feminists. LOL

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OK @@Liam, but straight men have rarely used sex in their careers, let alone posing naked. Come on. Women have an exhibitionist and flamboyant side which is shared with gay/bi men IMO. No offense

 

As for Me too and all that, I think it's out of control, and it's ruining a lot of men's lives who cannot defend themselves. It's very hard to prove abuse and harrassment in court. I think  it's causing more damage than benefits. Everybody gets defensive, men are paranoid, lawyers are happy, the media even more, etc. Flirting and coutship and seduction are in danger. We men are now fearful of women, which is crazy mate, crazy. Thank God the kind of women I attract are never feminists and the women I'm attracted to are never feminists. LOL

LOL!  Men didn't use "sex" in their careers?  Men have been notorious for using sex if not to use women as props as they had their way with them.  The difference is, Madonna turned it around. She took control of her own sexuality, exploited it, role played with it, etc. 

 

Unfortunately, everything good that happens, there's always a negative aspect to it.  I agree to some point that the Times up and Metoo movement are ruining careers that  shouldn't have.  Some tend to put a general label on things, and when you hear a man may have done something inappropriate, it's thrown in there with the worst of the worst.  For instance, James Franco is getting a lot of heat for sexual  misconduct.  Of course, he's denying any wrong doing.  And rightfully so if it is true that the sexual allegations are stemming from a class he taught about "sex scenes".   So yeah, I agree in some instances, some are just throwing out allegations to ruin people.  But over all, this needs to happen. Women must make a stand and show they deserve the same respect as men and be treated equal. It's not just about sexual conduct! It's about equality and respect.

 

Also, my point wasn't necessarily only about sexual conduct. It's about the over all fact that men get a free pass and/or paid more, etc., for doing the same things women are doing.  Again, the reason I agree Madonna suffers sexism is because she's done a lot of powerful things men have done, but suffered more criticism and backlash.  I'm not just referring to her getting naked and showing off her tits.  And just because she's filthy rich, doesn't mean she didn't suffer too badly.  She (like Oprah Winfrey) came up from nothing. They both built their careers from scratch, unlike some clown like Donald Trump who was handed the silver spoon. Yet, they received a lot of shit while climbing to the top, unlike men, even those who started with nothing as well.

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I just don't feel the need to defend women because I don't see them as victims of anything. Maybe until the 70s women were denied some rights, I give you that, it was a cultural thing. But I don't see any of that happening today. This debate is pointless because I don't relate to women the way you do (according to what you say), I relate to them sexually. I don't see them as peers, friends or whatever. But that doesn't mean I don't respect them. On the contrary I'm the ultimate gentleman and very protective of them. And let me tell you they love a protective man.

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I just don't feel the need to defend women because I don't see them as victims of anything. Maybe until the 70s women were denied some rights, I give you that, it was a cultural thing. But I don't see any of that happens today. This debate is pointless because I don't relate to women the way you do (according to what you say), I relate to them sexually. I don't see them as peers, friends or whatever. But that doesn't mean I don't respect them. On the contrary I'm the ultimate gentleman and very protective of them. And let me tell you they love a protective man.

 

 

And @@Liam, I remind you it was  you who open this thread whose title it's incredibly offensive and derogatory, and sexist and ageist.

 

Umm, why are you getting defensive here?  We're just having a civil discussion about our views.  Furthermore, how I titled this thread was a play on the negative way people respond to her.  (Did you even read my very first post, regarding the titling?)  I totally agree calling her "grandma", etc, is ageist and derogatory, but it's not me trying to be offensive. I used that title to grab people's attention.  Very much like how Madonna uses themes and subjects that people think negatively of to grab attention. My purpose was to discuss the very idea if her latest picture was either unflattering and show that she suffers sexism, and ageism.  Guess what? It worked!  That's what we're talking about.  So don't try to twist this around on me just because you might feel you're not winning some argument here.  To me, it's not a contest here. It's a discussion.  And it's a fair question since people such as her fans do seem to take issue with what she posted. Furthermore, people do refer to her as "grandma", etc.   I don't agree with that tone, but people are talking about it in such a manner, so I only jokingly highlighted that fact in my title and hoped people would talk about that fact.  If you think that's how I think of her, then you hardly have been reading or paying attention to my views on Madonna these last several months you've been active here.  I even commented about the intent of the title in my very first post. And if you don't want to talk civil about it, then feel free to make your exit!! No one is forcing you to participate here! 

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Not for a moment did I stop being civilized, But I started to feel judged myself for not siding with women, which I'll never do. I'm not defensive. I think you're too nervous. All the best

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Not for a moment did I stop being civilized, But I started to feel judged myself for not siding with women, which I'll never do. I'm not defensive. I think you're too nervous. All the best

Nervous?  About what?  Again, we're discussing our views.  If anyone is doing the judging, it's you.  Nothing I've said to you in these discussions was passing judgment regarding your views on women.  Yet, you immediately went after me, and the title of my thread, passing judgement.  Even when I was very clear in my first post about my intent! 

 

What I find odd is that you claim that you don't think women are "victims" of anything, yet immediately took offense of the title I used.  The title is only offending if the reader truly feels I meant Madonna was a "grandma" and I was trying to shame her.  The fact is, most everyone who has spoke with me at this community, knows I'm a big defender of Madonna. In fact, I stated, I wasn't really bothered by her showing her tits.  I brought up this topic because it's being heavily talked about among Madonna fans, regarding how unflattering the image is.  And I agree! 

 

Don't mistake just because people have different views than you, that they are simply judging you or trying to shut you up.  That seems to be an ongoing trend for some who think just because someone shares a different view, they are tying to silence them or make them feel small.  Yes, at times words are exchanged, and sometime it's not always nice and comfy words, but that's how issues are dealt with. People say what's on their mind. 

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 Thank God the kind of women you attract and the women you're attracted to don't want to be equal??!   madonna-gags-o.gif

 

 

 

Thank God the kind of women I attract are never feminists and the women I'm attracted to are never feminists. LOL

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