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Madonna at 60 / in The Guardian : Celebrating the queen of pop ahead of her 60th birthday in August 2018


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There is a full special feature celebrating M in today's The Guardian

Great read !!!

Madonna at 60

Celebrating the queen of pop ahead of her 60th birthday in August 2018

https://www.theguardian.com/music/series/madonna-at-60

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Barbara Ellen on Madonna: ‘Popular culture still reeks of her influence’ https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/jul/15/barbara-ellen-on-madonna-sexist-slurs-pop-surivor

Sarah Churchwell on Madonna: ‘She remains the hero of her own story’ https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/jul/15/sarah-churchwell-on-madonna-power-success-feminist-legacy

Matt Cain on Madonna: ‘She opened up gay culture to the mainstream’ https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/jul/15/matt-cain-on-madonna-homophobic-interviewers-gay-culture

Nancy Whang on Madonna: ‘She set an example for a lot of women’ https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/jul/15/nancy-whang-on-madonna-set-example-women-persona

Dancer Carlton Wilborn on Madonna: ‘Rehearsal truly was like boot camp’ https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/jul/15/dancer-carlton-wilborn-on-madonna-rehearsal-boot-camp-tour

Sophie on Madonna: ‘Her work is so vast – there’s a reference for any situation’ https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/jul/15/sophie-on-madonna-work-vast-musical-influence

Thurston Moore on Madonna: ‘She had credibility, she was really ahead of the game’ https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/jul/15/thurston-moore-on-madonna-credibility-new-york-downtown-scene

 

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Guest Sonny

This was a nice read. Thank you! I love the recognition she is getting but I feel like she deserves so much more. IMO the most beautifully written and touching article is the one of Matt Cain since he talks about the relationship between Madonna and the gay community, one of the main reasons I love Madonna:

"People forget the role Madonna played in opening up gay culture to the mainstream. She wasn’t gay herself, but from the beginning she talked about how gay people were part of her life (...) This was when George Michael, Freddie Mercury and the Pet Shop Boys didn’t dare to come out."

She has always been so brave and fierce from the very beginning, even though this could've damaged her career. Today younger artists support the LGBT community, which of course is a good thing, but I sometimes doubt their sincerity in doing so. I think that some of them support us in order to gain more fans and success, but in reality they don't really care. They have only to gain but nothing to lose from doing so. While in the 1980s, Madonna had a lot to lose, but she still supported the gay community and fought for us (like the "Like A Prayer" info sheet about AIDS, in interviews etc.)

"When people think about 1980s pop icons, they often think of those who’ve gone: Prince, Whitney, Michael Jackson. They often forget about Madonna, the only one that’s survived – and they continue to mock her, not just for being a sexually confident woman but for one who’s dared to get older and continue to produce work."

This is, unfortunately, a true statement. They always made fun of MJ and Whitney while they were alive, but after their deaths, they became legends. This is a shame because they deserved to be treated like legends during their lifetime! They also died very early so we didn't have a chance to see where they would have gone artistically or how they would have dealt with the younger generation (social networks etc.) Madonna, as the only survivor of those 80's icons, is therefore the first one to face this situation. So she may have done some missteps, like trying too hard to appeal to younger audiences, but she is paving once again the way for other artists who will deal with ageism and misogyny once they will get older (IF they will still be relevant after all those years like Madonna has!)

Sorry for my long post (and not so perfect English), but I would love to see more recognition and respect towards Madonna.

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59 minutes ago, Sonny said:

I feel like she deserves so much more.

but I would love to see more recognition and respect towards Madonna.

Are people ever going to stop begging for more ? When is enough ?

@Sonnykeep on being a sincere and devoted fan and stop making yourself miserable because the rest of the world isn't. You know what's right.

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Guest Sonny
32 minutes ago, discohub said:

Are people ever going to stop begging for more ? When is enough ?

@Sonnykeep on being a sincere and devoted fan and stop making yourself miserable because the rest of the world isn't. You know what's right.

Maybe my message was not clear, but I was just trying to say that some artists like MJ or even Beyoncé are seen as "Gods" and Madonna gets dragged all the time. Sometimes it just annoys me, but that's it.

Believe me, I am not making myself miserable because of this since my life doesn't depend on it. I am a devoted fan, yes, but with a happy personal life. :Madonna014:

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12 minutes ago, Sonny said:

Maybe my message was not clear, but I was just trying to say that some artists like MJ or even Beyoncé are seen as "Gods" and Madonna gets dragged all the time. Sometimes it just annoys me, but that's it.

Believe me, I am not making myself miserable because of this since my life doesn't depend on it. I am a devoted fan, yes, but with a happy personal life. :Madonna014:

Sure, I know what you meant.

No, she doesn't get dragged all the time. The Guardian published 4 pages today to celebrate her birthday and her legacy. Twitter is full of accounts that post all day long about how great she is. Her Instagram is followed by millions of people who like her posts. Billboard, NME, Pitchfork... There are so many respectable music & culture media who do very decent work and reports about M, even between eras. Music lovers know what they own her, even when they're not fans.

Forget about The Daily Mail and The New York Post, they're just clickbaiting with scandalous M headlines, just like The National Enquirer used to do with her in the 80s. She is so huge and so popular that haters will always be there to dismiss her. It's the downside of being the queen of pop.

On the other side, MJ and Beyoncé are wonderful artists and performers, who broke records and tackled taboos too, it's unfair to not acknowledge it. They have their share of haters also. Even very lately on this very forum I was appalled by the level of hate that Beyoncé gets for being a powerful black female. 

This forum is probably the worst place to evaluate how popular M is, because hardcore fans will always be complaining about not enough this, too much that. People on the outside world don't get into so much detail and usually think that M is one of the greatest artists of our times, period.

Madonna is still a very inspiring artist, very relevant. See the reactions about her cameo in Ariana Grande's video : "epic" is a word that comes back very often.

How could it hurt you when it looks so good ?

 

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Guest Sonny
9 minutes ago, discohub said:

Forget about The Daily Mail and The New York Post, they're just clickbaiting with scandalous M headlines, just like The National Enquirer used to do with her in the 80s. She is so huge and so popular that haters will always be there to dismiss her. It's the downside of being the queen of pop.

This is true. Every famous and successful person has his/her share of haters.

11 minutes ago, discohub said:

On the other side, MJ and Beyoncé are wonderful artists and performers, who broke records and tackled taboos too, it's unfair to not acknowledge it. They have their share of haters also. Even very lately on this very forum I was appalled by the level of hate that Beyoncé gets for being a powerful black female.

I am a new member so I don't know what others have said about Beyoncé before. I love MJ and enjoy some of Beyoncé's music as well, especially the last two albums. I think that the problem with her is how she (and her team) are forcing her image as the "greatest entertainer and most revolutionary artist" of the world on us.

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56 minutes ago, Sonny said:

I am a new member so I don't know what others have said about Beyoncé before. I love MJ and enjoy some of Beyoncé's music as well, especially the last two albums. I think that the problem with her is how she (and her team) are forcing her image as the "greatest entertainer and most revolutionary artist" of the world on us.

It's the job of PR and marketing people to force concepts and ideas on people. It's up to you to buy them or not.

But, MJ was the first black male singer to be as successful as white Elvis Presley, that's when he was revolutionary.

Beyoncé is the first black female entertainer to be as successful as white Madonna, so she is as much a great performer too. An African-American chick from Texas able to rent the Louvre for a shooting, I don't know how you call it if not revolutionary.

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thanks @Bel and @discohub.

I totally agree with @Sonny. I think Beyoncé is the product of a huge, huge, huge marketing campaing, like she was somehow IMPOSED on us. Everywhere you look, there is Beyoncé: any magazine cover, TV, humanitarian causes, awards, gets named in films for no reason, gets flourishing reviews in ROCK magazines, you name it. She received a COUNTRY MUSIC award once! This I remember very well. She's everywhere at the same time. Her public image is more powerful than her music which is played nowhere as far as I know. It's odd: she never gets bad press, she's sooooo good, sooooo talented. Don't you find it strange? What I think, and again I don't want to offend anyone, is that there's a enormous power machine pushing her, imposing her, installing the idea in the media and in the public minds that she's the best thing ever. And that Power Machine is engineered by, of course, the illuminati sect she belongs to, which in turn serves sionism. She and her husbands are the leaders. West and Rihanna are below them. It's a sinister satanist hierchachy  that rules the music industry today, and whatever or whoever is against them... they're over. Everybody is so fucking scared of them. They suck new artists into the sect and their change is notorious. The before and after is so obvious. After watching her new video, I can see Ariana Grande is their new member. What about Katty Perry's Grammys black mass? And the "Stairway to hell" horn hats at another Grammy ceremony? I can go on forever. Madonna was clever enough to sign to Tidal because she knows where the power is, and she was always tactful when mentioning Beyoncé. But I don't think she's with them at all. In order to survive in the business she must do some capitulations, so she flirts with this dark imagery to a certain extent. She's too clever.

If you know a little about semiology, history and art, and, well, the occult, you will find countless references to satanism or luciferianism for that matter, in her videos, photoshoots, etc.  It's so creepy. I'm so close to God, or "Light" that whenever I watch a video from these people I get sick, I have a physical reaction to them. It's too bad teens ignore all this and they're constantly dragged into this obscurity. You can laugh if you want but this is what I see. Awareness is all we have. And if you doubt, look into Beyonce's eyes. You'll see real evil.

@Discohub, I respect you point. But you have to go beyond the racial, gender and sex issues (which, believe me, exist in the US only because in Europe those differences are unthinkable, unimaginable). And therein lies the great paradox: A destructive message hides behind all these political correctness, like in a Trojan horse. Were Beyoncé and her husband WASP, or gay or whatever, I would still think the same. This is NOT about gender, race or sexual identity. 

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1 hour ago, Rotzheimberg said:

thanks @Bel and @discohub.

I totally agree with @Sonny. I think Beyoncé is the product of a huge, huge, huge marketing campaing, like she was somehow IMPOSED on us. Everywhere you look, there is Beyoncé: any magazine cover, TV, humanitarian causes, awards, gets named in films for no reason, gets flourishing reviews in ROCK magazines, you name it. She received a COUNTRY MUSIC award once! This I remember very well. She's everywhere at the same time. I don't don't know... Her public image is more powerful than her music which is played nowhere as far as I know. It's odd: she never gets bad press, she's sooooo good, sooooo talented. Don't you find it strange? What I think, and again I don't to offend anyone, is that there's a enormous power machine pushing her, imposing her, installing the idea in the media and in the public minds that she's the best thing ever. And that Power Machine is, of course, the illuminati sect where she belongs, which serves sionism. She and her husbands are the leaders. West and Rihanna are below them. It's a satanist hierchachy  that rules the music industry today, and whatever or whoever is against them... they're over. Everybody is so fucking scared of them. They sucked new artists into the sect. The before and after is so obvious. After watching her new video, I can see Ariana Grande is their new member. What about Katty Perry's Grammys black mass? And the "Stairway to hell" horn hats at another Grammy ceremony? I can go on forever. Madonna was clever enough to sign to Tidal because she knows where the power is, and she was always tactful when mentioning Beyoncé. 

If you know a little about semiology, history and art, and, well, the occult, you will find countless references to satanism or luciferianism for that matter, in her videos, photoshoots, etc.  It's so creepy. I'm so close to God, or "light" that whenever I watch a video from these people I get sick, I have a physical reaction to them. It's too bad teens ignore all this and they're constantly dragged into this obscurity. You can laugh if you want but this is what I see. Awareness is all we have. And if you doubt, look into Beyonce's eyes. You'll see real evil.

@Discohub, I respect you point. But you have to go beyond the obvious, blatant racial, gender and sex issues (which, believe me, exist in the US only because in Europe those differences are unthinkable, unimaginable). A destructive message hides behind all these political correctness, like in a Trojan horse. Were Beyoncé and her husband WASP, or gay or whatever, I would still think the same. 

Goodness, where to start... Madonna was on every magazine cover between 1989 and 1992 - you opened your fridge and she popped up. For people who weren't into her or didn't think that she was talented, that oversaturation must've seemed like an imposition of sorts as well. Maybe it's a matter of personal tastes - I didn't care much about Beyoncé's first few albums (some great singles but nothing beyond that) but I truly think her last 2 studio albums are absolutely outstanding in every way. They also sold over 7 million copies together so clearly some people enjoy her music. If you watch her recent Coachella set, whether you like that type of music or not, you cannot deny the woman's charisma, talent and musicality. I do agree that there's a bit of a Beyoncé cult in the media but I also think she's worked hard to get where she is.

Gender, racial and sex issues aren't unique to the USA sadly. Great Britain's relationship with race in post-colonial times is a struggle (to say the least), not to mention the recent rise of far-right, outright racist rhetoric in countries like Italy, Poland and Hungary. And don't even get me started on Russia. 

As for Illuminatti, there are plenty of videos online dissecting supposed Illuminati symbols in Madonna's work. But then again, there are also people out there who proudly believe that the Earth is flat  :) .

Coming back to the Guardian feature, I read all these pieces this morning and while I enjoyed them all, it was Matt Cain's bit that really struck a chord with me as well - I could relate to pretty much everything he was saying. All hail the Queen :heart: .

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Thenk you to @discohuband @kesiak,  for putting it all into perspective.  I hate these comparison threads where people bring up other artists and act like Madonna is not getting the respect she deserves.  And while I agree, it really takes a death of a great star to receive "just dues", but Madonna really has had a phenomenal career.  I have nothing against Beyonce' at all.  She deserves her success very much, but I honestly do not see her in the same phenomenal degree as Madonna.  Yet, some don't see Madonna in the same light I do and in the end that's just a matter of opinion.  In fact, I grew up while Michael Jackson and Madonna had their burst of phenomenal success, and I've never seen such phenomenal success since then.  Sure, we had a few bursts of Boy bands and pop princesses, but nothing on the same level as Madonna and Michael Jackson.  Whitney had her moments as well, especially with the whole Bodyguard movie and soundtrack.  Some have come close, but I've never seen anything like the phenomenon successes of Madonna and Michael Jackson.  From what I've heard, it's pretty much on the same level as Elvis and the Beatles.

It's true; Madonna deserves more respect. I won't deny that.  But this works for all living legends. They go on and some retire or never manage the same success they used to have.  After all, no one can stay on top forever.  Madonna has had a superb run, and in a way I still think she's still doing quite well for herself.  Most people recognize her as the "Queen of Pop".  Certainly, there is always going to be detractors. That's just part of life!  And sorry to say, some need to accept, other entertainers will come along and come close if not experience similar success.  But it doesn't mean we should try to demean them or act; "Why is (add in the flavor of the month) getting so much praise while Madonna gets dumped on?"   It's just part of life.  The new come in while they try to roll out the old.  Fortunately for us Madonna fans, Madonna refuses to roll out.  But to expect she's going to have the same level of success today as these new pop tarts is being unrealistic.  Especially when the music business is dominated by youth.  During Madonna's peak, the same was going on with older entertainers of her generation.  None of that has really changed.  But as said, Madonna is refusing to be put out to pasture.  

As for the spread on her... it's a nice read.  I wish the focus wasn't so much on her age, but thankfully it does mention many of her influences in gay and pop culture.  In the end, Madonna wouldn't of manage 35 years of success by just being only controversial or another pretty face in the entertainment business.  Madonna is the model in how to be the hugest pop star in the world.  And guess what, we're going to have a lot of people along the way take a page from her.  Some will succeed and others won't.   No one or nothing will take away the phenomenal career of Madonna.  She is no doubt "The Queen of Pop", and always will be.  Others might try on the crown during their time, but as long as Madonna is alive, she's not giving up that crown.  In fact, I'm sure she'll demand to be buried with it.  LOL!

 

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5 hours ago, Sonny said:

This is true. Every famous and successful person has his/her share of haters.

I am a new member so I don't know what others have said about Beyoncé before. I love MJ and enjoy some of Beyoncé's music as well, especially the last two albums. I think that the problem with her is how she (and her team) are forcing her image as the "greatest entertainer and most revolutionary artist" of the world on us.

You do realize it's all part of the hype and packaging of an artist.  Madonna has had her day where she was pushed onto the world.  She had a team as well backing her, saying she's "the greatest female entertainer of all time" or "the biggest selling female artist of all time" and so on.  How many times have you heard those tag lines given to so many other females as well? It's just part of the game to hype up the artist.  It's been done to Madonna as well as many other artists along the way.  But let's not pretend that Beyoncé hasn't had an incredible success.  However you spin it, you can't change the fact she's still sold millions of records as well and scored some pretty phenomenal success in the music and film industry.  

Anyway, I don't think what is said of Beyoncé changes anything regarding who Madonna is, or keep people from recognizes that Madonna is the undisputed "Queen of Pop".  People like Beyoncé recognize without Madonna, they probably wouldn't have manage the careers they have had.  But as I mentioned in my post above, there will always be other artists who will manage similar success as Madonna.  If you don't like Madonna getting the shaft, then maybe we should be trying to give other artists, the shaft, who worked their ass off just as much. 

 

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3 hours ago, stefo said:

"So, happy birthday to Madonna. She’s sung, danced, acted, yapped, provoked, riled, worked her butt off, kept a sense of humour and taken all the sexist slurs with her head held high. Here’s to an artist who can’t come back because she never went away."

AMEN!

You are right. I hate it when they say "a come back" referring to someone that never left. To them, to be back means to be back on the charts. Sales. 

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Guest Sonny

First of all, I didn't intend to make some of you angry so sorry guys. Still, I think that I am allowed to express my point of view (without insulting anybody of course ;-) ) and discuss topics with people who want to discuss, so I don't see the problem.

I did not want to discredit Beyoncé's achievements because, as I said, I love her last two albums and I think she has done a great job. What I wanted to say and I think what @Rotzheimbergalso tried to explain is that she does not get a single bad press. Everything she does gets applauded and loved to the max and people never dare to say something negative about her and always pretend that she has surpassed MJ's or Madonna's success. Madonna and so many other artists have always had good and negative reactions even at their peak. That's what I think is questionable.

As for her impact, her last two albums have not had the same success as her previous ones and, at least in European countries like Germany or Italy, I have rarely listened to her newer stuff on the radio or seen the same hype about her as in the US.

In the end, my main message was that very often artists are being fully appreciated for their careers only after their death, and although I see Madonna being recognized by several music magazines, IN MY OPINION, the general public has somewhat forgotten about her legacy.

 

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55 minutes ago, Sonny said:

First of all, I didn't intend to make some of you angry so sorry guys. Still, I think that I am allowed to express my point of view (without insulting anybody of course ;-) ) and discuss topics with people who want to discuss, so I don't see the problem.

I did not want to discredit Beyoncé's achievements because, as I said, I love her last two albums and I think she has done a great job. What I wanted to say and I think what @Rotzheimbergalso tried to explain is that she does not get a single bad press. Everything she does gets applauded and loved to the max and people never dare to say something negative about her and always pretend that she has surpassed MJ's or Madonna's success. Madonna and so many other artists have always had good and negative reactions even at their peak. That's what I think is questionable.

As for her impact, her last two albums have not had the same success as her previous ones and, at least in European countries like Germany or Italy, I have rarely listened to her newer stuff on the radio or seen the same hype about her as in the US.

In the end, my main message was that very often artists are being fully appreciated for their careers only after their death, and although I see Madonna being recognized by several music magazines, IN MY OPINION, the general public has somewhat forgotten about her legacy.

 

No, no @Sonny. I meant that she's demonic. And hadn't she had the illuminati support she would't not come this far. 

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1 hour ago, Sonny said:

First of all, I didn't intend to make some of you angry so sorry guys. Still, I think that I am allowed to express my point of view (without insulting anybody of course ;-) ) and discuss topics with people who want to discuss, so I don't see the problem.

I did not want to discredit Beyoncé's achievements because, as I said, I love her last two albums and I think she has done a great job. What I wanted to say and I think what @Rotzheimbergalso tried to explain is that she does not get a single bad press. Everything she does gets applauded and loved to the max and people never dare to say something negative about her and always pretend that she has surpassed MJ's or Madonna's success. Madonna and so many other artists have always had good and negative reactions even at their peak. That's what I think is questionable.

As for her impact, her last two albums have not had the same success as her previous ones and, at least in European countries like Germany or Italy, I have rarely listened to her newer stuff on the radio or seen the same hype about her as in the US.

In the end, my main message was that very often artists are being fully appreciated for their careers only after their death, and although I see Madonna being recognized by several music magazines, IN MY OPINION, the general public has somewhat forgotten about her legacy.

 

I think you have to keep in mind what @discohub said earlier on in the thread. You can't focus on the negative and appreciate the positive that has and is been being said of Madonna.  Sure she's had plenty of shit thrown at her.  And, I can't really say I pay much mind what anyone says of Beyonce whether it's good or bad, but I'm sure she gets trashed as well.  But what does it matter?  What does it really have to do with anything regarding Madonna?  They both are their own artists and both have enjoyed some huge success.  So what if Beyonce gets good press?  Good for her. Let's be happy that someone like Madonna has helped paved the way for her to be far more respected, rather drag her down for being spoken highly of.  Whether she's worthy of it or not, it's pure opinionated anyway. 

Believe me, Madonna's "legacy" in not being forgotten.  For one, you know if she dies today, people will come out of the woodwork in droves to sing her praises. It's unfortunately how it it works.  It's just not something that Madonna only suffers from.  Every artist goes through this especially those who are still in the business 35 plus years later. 

Also, Madonna is far more polarizing than Beyonce'.   This is why people probably talk negatively of Madonna more than Beyonce'.  But again, I don't pay much attention to Beyonce' and it doesn't bother me that she's being reference as a "Queen" herself. She deserves it!   She may not be other's cup of tea, but I really don't think she was just handed a silver platter. She's had her struggles along the way. 

Again, I hate this thread has become about another artist where people are ragging on because she supposedly isn't going through the ringer like Madonna has.  Why would we wish that kind of negativity on another?  Why can't we see that Madonna has probably helped pave the way for someone like Beyonce'?  I don't look at it as some competition. I don't think Beyonce' and Madonna do either.  They are two different artists who both have had some great success. So what if Beyonce' hasn't had some hit albums lately.  Guess what?  We can same the same of Madonna, but does that make Madonna any less deserving to be celebrated for what she's accomplished?  No!  And that's what we're talking about here.  So why say it about other artists when we don't like it being said of Madonna.  It's so easy to take offense to it all when you closely follow someone like Madonna, but when you don't have the same devotion towards another artists, it's a little less harder to comprehend the big deal about them, but believe it or not, there are people out there who think Beyonce' is better and far more talented.  To us, that may seem blasphemous, but have they really invested much time in Madonna to really see that she may be equally as talented if not more?  Probably not!  Then there are just people who hate on other artists, and sadly we have Madonna fans who do the same towards other artists, but then get all hot and bothered when others do the same to Madonna. 

I say; just appreciate who you like and forget about the rest... the negativity.  I really do not see Madonna struggling to get by. She may not get her due respect at times, but she's still laughing all the way to the bank. She's one of the richest entertainers of the world.  She has homes in several different regions in the world. She still sells concert tickets that most newer artists only dream of.  And lastly, she has 35 years among her belt that no one can take away from her.  The fact people still talk about her whether it's positive or negative, it's proves she's still far relevant whether some give her credit for.  In the end, it doesn't matter because Madonna's still doing what she wants to do and living the dream. 

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3 hours ago, kesiak said:

Goodness, where to start... Madonna was on every magazine cover between 1989 and 1992 - you opened your fridge and she popped up. For people who weren't into her or didn't think that she was talented, that oversaturation must've seemed like an imposition of sorts as well. Maybe it's a matter of personal tastes - I didn't care much about Beyoncé's first few albums (some great singles but nothing beyond that) but I truly think her last 2 studio albums are absolutely outstanding in every way. They also sold over 7 million copies together so clearly some people enjoy her music. If you watch her recent Coachella set, whether you like that type of music or not, you cannot deny the woman's charisma, talent and musicality. I do agree that there's a bit of a Beyoncé cult in the media but I also think she's worked hard to get where she is.

Gender, racial and sex issues aren't unique to the USA sadly. Great Britain's relationship with race in post-colonial times is a struggle (to say the least), not to mention the recent rise of far-right, outright racist rhetoric in countries like Italy, Poland and Hungary. And don't even get me started on Russia. 

As for Illuminatti, there are plenty of videos online dissecting supposed Illuminati symbols in Madonna's work. But then again, there are also people out there who proudly believe that the Earth is flat  :) .

Coming back to the Guardian feature, I read all these pieces this morning and while I enjoyed them all, it was Matt Cain's bit that really struck a chord with me as well - I could relate to pretty much everything he was saying. All hail the Queen :heart: .

Lol. Are you being condescending? You're view is as relativist as it's simplistic, soaked in a predictible left-wing ideologization, which sometimes can be really fascist. I could go on for days with this, bringing philosophers and art historians to the table, but it's pointless. My source of knowledge is academic, not from "online videos", and denying the existence of the illluminati would be like denying the existence of the masonry. 

Sales and quality are not always bedfellows. Crap sells easily. And Beyonce has the zero charisma. The media made us believe she has it. She's no better singer than Grande or Sia. It's so easy to reach superstardom when the whole system conspire to help you get it, when you are a militant for political correctness. 

I know about Madonna covers. Been a fan from 1985 onwards, so I know she was on countless covers before 1989. The difference is that she 7 times out of ten she got bad press, even in cover stories. Beyonce is so safe to the point of boredom, never a word out of place. Madonna shaked the system and prevailed against all odds.

When you talk about racism in those countries, you are talking about the hideous policies of their governments, but I'm talking about something deeper, an idiosyncratic behaviour. Do you understand? Maybe your view derives are from personal experience and I touched a nerve. If so, I apologize. 

 

PS Plato thought the earth was flat, by the way lol

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Did I miss something?  I thought this thread was acknowledging Madonna's long spanning career and influence on culture (positively, I might add), rather building this ridiculous case against another artist, proclaiming she's part of some silly conspiracy theory, explaining her supposed success/popularity?   

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Guest Sonny
2 hours ago, Liam said:

I think you have to keep in mind what @discohub said earlier on in the thread. You can't focus on the negative and appreciate the positive that has and is been being said of Madonna.  Sure she's had plenty of shit thrown at her.  And, I can't really say I pay much mind what anyone says of Beyonce whether it's good or bad, but I'm sure she gets trashed as well.  But what does it matter?  What does it really have to do with anything regarding Madonna?  They both are their own artists and both have enjoyed some huge success.  So what if Beyonce gets good press?  Good for her. Let's be happy that someone like Madonna has helped paved the way for her to be far more respected, rather drag her down for being spoken highly of.  Whether she's worthy of it or not, it's pure opinionated anyway. 

Believe me, Madonna's "legacy" in not being forgotten.  For one, you know if she dies today, people will come out of the woodwork in droves to sing her praises. It's unfortunately how it it works.  It's just not something that Madonna only suffers from.  Every artist goes through this especially those who are still in the business 35 plus years later. 

Also, Madonna is far more polarizing than Beyonce'.   This is why people probably talk negatively of Madonna more than Beyonce'.  But again, I don't pay much attention to Beyonce' and it doesn't bother me that she's being reference as a "Queen" herself. She deserves it!   She may not be other's cup of tea, but I really don't think she was just handed a silver platter. She's had her struggles along the way. 

Again, I hate this thread has become about another artist where people are ragging on because she supposedly isn't going through the ringer like Madonna has.  Why would we wish that kind of negativity on another?  Why can't we see that Madonna has probably helped pave the way for someone like Beyonce'?  I don't look at it as some competition. I don't think Beyonce' and Madonna do either.  They are two different artists who both have had some great success. So what if Beyonce' hasn't had some hit albums lately.  Guess what?  We can same the same of Madonna, but does that make Madonna any less deserving to be celebrated for what she's accomplished?  No!  And that's what we're talking about here.  So why say it about other artists when we don't like it being said of Madonna.  It's so easy to take offense to it all when you closely follow someone like Madonna, but when you don't have the same devotion towards another artists, it's a little less harder to comprehend the big deal about them, but believe it or not, there are people out there who think Beyonce' is better and far more talented.  To us, that may seem blasphemous, but have they really invested much time in Madonna to really see that she may be equally as talented if not more?  Probably not!  Then there are just people who hate on other artists, and sadly we have Madonna fans who do the same towards other artists, but then get all hot and bothered when others do the same to Madonna. 

I say; just appreciate who you like and forget about the rest... the negativity.  I really do not see Madonna struggling to get by. She may not get her due respect at times, but she's still laughing all the way to the bank. She's one of the richest entertainers of the world.  She has homes in several different regions in the world. She still sells concert tickets that most newer artists only dream of.  And lastly, she has 35 years among her belt that no one can take away from her.  The fact people still talk about her whether it's positive or negative, it's proves she's still far relevant whether some give her credit for.  In the end, it doesn't matter because Madonna's still doing what she wants to do and living the dream. 

I agree with you! This thread has become full of negativity and we got a bit distracted from our main focus: celebrating Madonna's career and her influence on pop and gay culture.

And yes, let us all appreciate our own idol without criticizing too much other artists, which is not worth our time. To each his own.

I hope we can end this discussion here :seeno:

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52 minutes ago, Sonny said:

I agree with you! This thread has become full of negativity and we got a bit distracted from our main focus: celebrating Madonna's career and her influence on pop and gay culture.

And yes, let us all appreciate our own idol without criticizing too much other artists, which is not worth our time. To each his own.

I hope we can end this discussion here :seeno:

To be honest, you came in with great intentions, citing the actual articles, and on point about a concern we all share. We all understand that frustration that she is the only Mega star of the 80's left and seems somewhat forgotten. It is sad it takes one dying to get the true appreciation one deserves, and I think that goes for anyone famous or not. People tend to put things in perspective when someone dies, at least for a period of time until life goes on. 

You definitely constructively add to the Madonna discussions, and I appreciate that.  I can tell you are a "true blue" fan and are able to balance the positive and negatives.  Just take it from me, a fan who has been there since she began, she really had her day at the top. Sure, she was slung through the mud on the way to the top and throughout, but she's proven to be a survivor.  She is far more respected than when she was in the 80's.  And people are fooling themselves if they don't think Madonna didn't have her own team that promoted her to make sure she was bankable.  The big difference is Madonna was able to do it pretty much her way from the beginning.  A lot of that is due to the fact because from the very beginning the big wigs at Warners didn't have faith in her.  Yet, Seymour Stein did.  She proved everyone wrong.  She was this quirky, ballsy street smart gal who knew how to work the system.  So she was able to run the show just as well.  And before Warners could grab a piece of Madonna, she was already soaring. 

To me, Madonna did things a little backwards.  She knew she was "it" from the start and the way she approached anything is acting like she was already someone important/famous.  That's a huge gamble.  All  through her career, she kept taking that gamble and won.  Of course, there were several points in her career that she had some lows, but looking back, fans love those periods.  Many people thought she was done once the Sex Book, Erotica and Body Of Evidence came out.  But look now!  Most fans love that period from her, and now she's been hailed for taking that risk. 

One thing I know is never count Madonna out.  She may never appeal to the general public like she once did, but I believe she will always be around like a roach in an Apocalypse. And I think as she grows older, she will be known as this ballsy women who doesn't take shit from anyone.  I can see her in her 90's like Betty White, still saying whatever, doing whatever she wants, and not having a care in the world.  Meanwhile, laughing all the way to the bank.  Some fans seem to take issue with her other ventures, and while some have failed, that's a risk one takes. Others have flourished. Right now the whole MDNA seems to be her baby.  Why try to buck that when we know she is being given shit for continuing her music career?  She's always prided herself regarding beauty, so why not have her own line.  And as for directing films, well, that again is her passion. She's always wanted to be accepted in films. It may never happen, but who cares?  It seems the films she is taking on, are subjects dear to her heart.  To me, that isn't cashing in, nor trying to be anything she's not.  She's trying to share her own interest, while at the same time, keep her music career going in an industry that wants to shut people down after a certain age.

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