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Madonna at 60 / in The Guardian : Celebrating the queen of pop ahead of her 60th birthday in August 2018


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6 hours ago, Liam said:

You do realize it's all part of the hype and packaging of an artist.  Madonna has had her day where she was pushed onto the world.  She had a team as well backing her, saying she's "the greatest female entertainer of all time" or "the biggest selling female artist of all time" and so on.  How many times have you heard those tag lines given to so many other females as well? It's just part of the game to hype up the artist.  It's been done to Madonna as well as many other artists along the way.  But let's not pretend that Beyoncé hasn't had an incredible success.  However you spin it, you can't change the fact she's still sold millions of records as well and scored some pretty phenomenal success in the music and film industry.  

Anyway, I don't think what is said of Beyoncé changes anything regarding who Madonna is, or keep people from recognizes that Madonna is the undisputed "Queen of Pop".  People like Beyoncé recognize without Madonna, they probably wouldn't have manage the careers they have had.  But as I mentioned in my post above, there will always be other artists who will manage similar success as Madonna.  If you don't like Madonna getting the shaft, then maybe we should be trying to give other artists, the shaft, who worked their ass off just as much. 

 

Can I just quickly add something here and forgive me for my short response. I would like to add more to this thread. The subject of this thread stirs memories for me.  I was a teenager when Madonna first came out in music and I remember Cyndi Lauper this and Cyndi Lauper that all the while wondering why Madonna was getting no respect from people in the music industry. I liked Cyndi, don't get me wrong but I connected to Madonna more and couldn't understand why other people in the industry couldn't see that connection. What I know now is they simply did not value that connection and they stubbornly still don't. I was suppose to see "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun" as my mantra. Girls already knew how to have fun, they need to talk about something else. 

They have been verbally dismissing her for years and got the bright idea in recent years  to be proactive in persuading her fans to dismiss her as well. 

I am specifically talking about rock stars who constantly pat each other on the back (as well as constantly getting a pat on the back from everyone else) while dismissing her work. 

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15 hours ago, LikeAMelody said:

Can I just quickly add something here and forgive me for my short response. I would like to add more to this thread. The subject of this thread stirs memories for me.  I was a teenager when Madonna first came out in music and I remember Cindi Lauper this and Cindi Lauper that all the while wondering why Madonna was getting no respect from people in the music industry. I liked Cindi, don't get me wrong but I connected to Madonna more and couldn't understand why other people in the industry couldn't see that connection. What I know now is they simply did not value that connection and they stubbornly still don't. They have been verbally dismissing her for years and got the bright idea to be proactive in persuading her fans to dismiss her as well. 

Well said!  But let's not discredit Cyndi Lauper.  I love her.  She's a great artist, but like you mentioned she's no Madonna.  The media back then tried to pit those two against each other.  Neither artists took the bait.  Cyndi has been quite vocal for her respect for Madonna, even though Madonna really says nothing about her.  A lot of criticism/comparisoms regarding Madonna and Cyndi are their "looks".  A lot of people thought Madonna took it from Cyndi.  Yet, Pat Benatar had already been pretty popular before the two of them. That look had been already popular among the NYC scene.  Madonna was right there to embrace it.  Cyndi obviously was as well. 

In the end, Madonna became far more successful than any of those girls!  So I have no complaints.  Madonna proved to be a stronger artist and willing to change her image while Cyndi was plugging along.  But again, I love Cyndi.  I think she's far more talented as a singer and actress, but Madonna is far much better as an entertainer. 

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12 minutes ago, Liam said:

Well said!  But let's now discredit Cyndi Lauper.  I love her.  She's a great artists, but like you mentioned she's no Madonna.  The media back then tried to pit those two against each other.  Neither artists took the bait.  Cyndi has been quite vocal for her respect for Cyndi, even though Madonna really says nothing about her.  A lot of criticism regarding Madonna and Cyndi is their "looks".  A lot of people thought Madonna took it from Madonna.  Yet, Pat Benatar had already been pretty popular before the two of them. That look Madonna had been already popular among the NYC scene.  Madonna was right there to embrace it.  Cyndi obviously was ask well. 

In the end, Madonna became far more successful than any of those girls!  So I have no complaints.  Madonna proved to be a stronger artist and willing to change her image while Cyndi was plugging along.  But again, I love Cyndi.  I think she's far more talented as a singer and actress, but Madonna is far much better as an entertainer. 

I think Madonna is much more then just an entertainer. Trust me, I am drawn to more than that. I am drawn to Madonna by what she says and how she makes me feel listening to her voice.  There is nothing that can replace that and all I have ever wanted was for others in the industry to just acknowledge the real reason I love her work. They have a lot of nerve thinking they can inform me of why I do. 

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1 minute ago, LikeAMelody said:

I think Madonna is much more then just an entertainer. Trust me, I am drawn to more than that. I am drawn to Madonna by what she says and how she makes me feel listening to her voice.  There is nothing that can replace that and all I have ever wanted was for others in the industry to just acknowledge the real reason I love her work and not all the reasons they like to inform me why I do. 

Oh, I don't disagree.  My point is that Madonna is never regarded as the greatest dancer, singer or actress, but she definitely has the knack to entertain.  There is far much more to her than just being any pop star. She's more than that.  She's exudes this persona that people are drawn to.  A lot of people who meet her (even until this day) are drawn into her.  She has this way in captivating people, and I guess that's why I say she's a great entertainer.  Not perfect as one particular thing, but is able to work with what she has to be a great entertainer.  And over the years, I feel she's become better as a singer and songwriter.

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11 hours ago, Sonny said:

as I said, I love her last two albums and I think she has done a great job. What I wanted to say and I think what @Rotzheimbergalso tried to explain is that she does not get a single bad press. Everything she does gets applauded and loved to the max and people never dare to say something negative about her and always pretend that she has surpassed MJ's or Madonna's success. Madonna and so many other artists have always had good and negative reactions even at their peak. That's what I think is questionable.

 

Very well said. I don't know what's the problem with nowadays "critics". they're just sucking so hard some singer's anal so sometimes I'm just wondering that their lips and tongue are OK .

They did and still do so unfair attacking for The One and Only Queen of Pop Madonna but if that subject is some particular average singer then they just over praise about them. 

 

oh by the way you don't have to sorry about expressing your opinion.:heart:

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16 hours ago, Rotzheimberg said:

@Discohub, I respect you point. But you have to go beyond the racial, gender and sex issues (which, believe me, exist in the US only because in Europe those differences are unthinkable, unimaginable). And therein lies the great paradox: A destructive message hides behind all these political correctness, like in a Trojan horse. Were Beyoncé and her husband WASP, or gay or whatever, I would still think the same. This is NOT about gender, race or sexual identity. 

No.

Take it back please.

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I'm certainly no fan of Beyonce, but calling her demonic seems far-fetched. Lots of artists play with Illuminati symbols. Remember Madonna wearing the jacket with the all seeing eye? I think it has more to do with artists taking up an an anarchist position than with promoting a new world order. It's just an example of counter-culture. The world of Illuminati is stil a mystery and artists use it as a way to provoke and to tell the world they are so rich, succesful and famous they could be Illuminati. But they aren't. And who cares if they are? It won't change my life or the way I view the world, where everyone is just looking for purpose in life.

The reason Madonna gets more negative press than Beyonce is because  Madonna has always been more provocative. Madonna also was First. She was The Original. A trailblazer. And it's the trailblazer who always has to deal with severe criticism and being vilified. The way Madonna flaunted her sexuality in the late eighties and early nineties was new and very direct. Not everyone was ready to be accepting of that. The Like A Prayer, Justify My Love and Erotica videos caused huge shockwaves throughout the world. These days flaunting your sexuality is rather normal.

There's no more shock and awe as was the case when Madonna did it. And she couldn't have done it better. She changed the world and some people hated her for it, for their comfort zone was at stake. And while Beyonce certainly is a wonderful performer, she plays it more safe than Madonna ever did. If Beyonce is hanging on a cross on stage like Madonna during the Confessions Tour I'm sure there will be lots and lots of criticism. But once again, Madonna would be First. And while Beyonce and others are singing and dancing perfectly, Madonna is already in the midst of another controversy, fighting ageism. And I'm very curious to see the direction she is taking and which boundaries she is going to break. I'm sure artists like Beyonce, Ariana, Katy and Taylor (if they're still around when they turn 60) will be taking notes from the Madonna textbook once again.

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19 hours ago, Suzy Q. said:

And while Beyonce certainly is a wonderful performer, she plays it more safe than Madonna ever did. If Beyonce is hanging on a cross on stage like Madonna during the Confessions Tour I'm sure there will be lots and lots of criticism. But once again, Madonna would be First. 

Beyoncé performed in Black Panther attire at the Super Bowl, which is the whitest place in America, I don't call it playing it safe. Beyoncé sings about getting fucked by her husband in the limousine, when is it safe ? She did a video half naked with Nicki Minaj in a tub and you pretend she's a prude ? She is not as provocative as Madonna used to be, but she isn't toning down any of her statements. 

I'm really very sad to read here that people need to bring Bey down. If you don't like her, fine, don't waste your time & don't waste mine.

Times are different. When Madonna broke through, she was the first female performer to walk in men's steps, against all male privileges and machism. Once those barriers are broken, there's is no point in redoing it, so the next ones will tackled other issues and conquer new territories. M herslef is not fighting for the things she took down in the 80s, she is now an "anti-ageist" fighter.

Now you all need to understand that racism exists just as much as machism, and Beyoncé being the first black woman to do this, this and that is important and revolutionary. Of course, we had Janet Jackson and Whitney Houston before, of course she is not the first of firsts. But Madonna wasn't the first to sing in a wedding dress or to touch her crotch on stage : she was the first one to impress the whole world while doing this. That's what you call cultural impact. Destiny's Child took the crown of girl bands after the Spice Girls. Single Ladies is an anthem for some. "I woke up like this" is a cultural meme.

Black women are stereotyped into exotic dolls, stupid maids and ethnic clichés : Bey is totally deconstructing all of this. Not for white folks, most of them are color blind so that's probably why so many here totally miss her point. But just as much as M, she doesn't give a damn about what you think. She is empowering a generation of black / mixed race people, especially girls, that never had the chance to witness such things. The thing with western culture is that it hardly lets black / non caucasian people be the first ones to do anything.

Janet was the little Jackson sibling. Whitney was a studio captive, and it didn't end well for her. Beyoncé is nobody's puppet, she is the commander of her ship and she is even sometimes shadowing her own husband. May I remind you that Jay-Z started his career in 1990 ? He's like the Rod Stewart of hip hop and Beyoncé manages to boytoy him. Another revolutionary feat.

Learn before you speak (not you @Suzy Q.;-) . Enough judgement, unconscious racism et petty rivalry. Being an M fan should have taught you better.

Now I'm also very angry that my first post, about The Guardian / The Observer, has turned so sour because of your paranoid BS. Dragging Beyoncé down will never make Madonna look better or younger.

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25 minutes ago, discohub said:

Now you all need to understand that racism exists just as much as machism, and Beyoncé being the first black woman to do this, this and that is important and revolutionary.

Actually, I should bite my tongue just a little bit. You are absolutely right about racism and black women being stereotyped. In all honesty I haven't thought about it that way when I mentioned Beyonce in this thread yesterday. In Europe, where I live, racism based on the colour of one's skin isn't very common, at least not in my vicinity. I forgot that it's an entirely different matter in the USA. Considering this Beyonce performing in Black Panther attire during the Super Bowl really is quite risqué and she is indeed a trailblazer for the black community. I'm always eager to learn, so thank you for your wise words.

With much respect,

Suzy Q.

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52 minutes ago, discohub said:

Beyoncé performed in Black Panther attire at the Super Bowl, which is the whitest place in America, I don't call it playing it safe. Beyoncé sings about getting fucked by her husband in the limousine, when is it safe ? She did a video half naked with Nicki Minaj in a tub and you pretend she's a prude ? She is not as provocative as Madonna used to be, but she isn't toning down any of her statements. 

I'm really very sad to read here that people need to bring Bey down. If you don't like her, fine, don't waste your time & don't waste mine.

Times are different. When Madonna broke through, she was the first female performer to walk in men's steps, against all male privileges and machism. Once those barriers are broken, there's is no point in redoing it, so the next ones will tackled other issues and conquer new territories. M herslef is not fighting for the things she took down in the 80s, she is now an "anti-ageist" fighter.

Now you all need to understand that racism exists just as much as machism, and Beyoncé being the first black woman to do this, this and that is important and revolutionary. Of course, we had Janet Jackson and Whitney Houston before, of course she is not the first of firsts. But Madonna wasn't the first to sing in a wedding dress or to touch her crotch on stage : she was the first one to impress the whole world while doing this. That's what you call cultural impact. Destiny's Child took the crown of girl bands after the Spice Girls. Single Ladies is an anthem for some. "I woke up like this" is a cultural meme.

Black women are stereotyped into exotic dolls, stupid maids and ethnic clichés : Bey is totally deconstructing all of this. Not for white folks, most of them are color blind so that's probably why so many here totally miss her point. But just as much as M, she doesn't give a damn about what you think. She is empowering a generation of black / mixed race people, especially girls, that never had the chance to witness such things. The thing with western culture is that it hardly lets black / non caucasian people be the first ones to do anything.

Janet was the little Jackson sibling. Whitney was a studio captive, and it didn't end well for her. Beyoncé is nobody's puppet, she is the commander of her ship and she is even sometimes shadowing her own husband. May I remind you that Jay-Z started his career in 1990 ? He's like the Rod Stewart of hip hop and Beyoncé manages to boytoy him. Another revolutionary feat.

Learn before you speak (not you @Suzy Q.;-) . Enough judgement, unconscious racism et petty rivalry. Being an M fan should have taught you better.

Now I'm also very angry that my first post, about The Guardian / The Observer, has turned so sour because of your paranoid BS. Dragging Beyoncé down will never make Madonna look better or younger.

 

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11 hours ago, Suzy Q. said:

Actually, I should bite my tongue just a little bit. You are absolutely right about racism and black women being stereotyped. In all honesty I haven't thought about it that way when I mentioned Beyonce in this thread yesterday. In Europe, where I live, racism based on the colour of one's skin isn't very common, at least not in my vicinity. I forgot that it's an entirely different matter in the USA. Considering this Beyonce performing in Black Panther attire during the Super Bowl really is quite risqué and she is indeed a trailblazer for the black community. I'm always eager to learn, so thank you for your wise words.

With much respect,

Suzy Q.

I'm French and discrimination against people of colour is quite an issue down here. But we won the world cup :tongue:

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