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Gay vs. Straight fans


Enrico
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May I ask a tough question?

I hope my words are not misunderstood... please I don't mean to offend anyone! If I do, forgive me!

When did Madonna become a "gay thing"?

I mean, when I started being a fan, in the Eighties, everyone liked Madonna. It was.. "normal" to buy her records (one of my first M experiences was listening to the Into the groove 7'' during a party at a friend's house), to watch her movies, to go to her concerts. It was almost impossible to find a seat for the movie WTG, everyone wanted to go!

The question came to my mind after watching this Madonna Scrapbook IG post today:

I remember my male schoolmates watching the La isla bonita video and being excited and watching it frame by frame to see the moment when she touches herself a little (it seems so funny and innocent now).

A few years later, other schoolmates would call me "Lady Madonna" and make fun of me for being a Madonna fan. I think it was 1991.

When did Madonna stop being loved by heterosexual men and became mainly a gay icon?

Of course I know that NOT EVERY Madonna fan is gay, but most are, also in this forum. And her concerts it's rare to see non-gay fans. Sometimes you hear the stereotype that if you love M, you are gay: there is a movie (don't remember which one) when a girl tests a boy to see if he's gay by asking him the tracklist from Like a prayer.

I don't think this changed during LAP era. I suspect it was during the Vogue/Bat/TOD era, and then for Erotica.

After watching the great tv series Pose, it's really evident what she took from the gay underground culture and made it mainstream. Is this the reason?

 

 

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Well it’s no new story that she had many many close gay friends in her early years, even before she was Madonna the pop star. With her dancers, with her movements in the long fight for AIDS prevention... I think in that time she really catered to gay fans. And  at that time, gay fans needed that support and voice. We still do, definitely. 

 

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Andymad is correct.  Madonna while during the Pre-Madonna years as an adult always had gay influencers on her... her teachers, her friends, etc., that is one aspect.  She was always on the side of us gays from the beginning.  

Now, in general, the pop stardom and appeal aspect of the gay draw to Madonna was as strong and alluring as gays to Barbra or Judy or Liza or Cher or Bette... there is just something from a pop star aspect that was like a magnet for us to be attracted to Madonna's light.  I have not found in modern post madonna history many other types of magnetisms... For some, I guess Gaga or Beyonce for sure, likely Britney... But all of them in one form or another still look up to Madonna as their role model and know the feeling of what is was like being an early Madonna fan... it was such a ride. 

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49 minutes ago, Enrico said:

May I ask a tough question?

When did Madonna stop being loved by heterosexual men and became mainly a gay icon?

 

I would say after the "Express Yourself" video. My hetero friends loved the first Madonna (The first album, Like a Virgin, True Blue) but after "Express Yourself" and "Vogue" they suddenly disliked her.

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13 minutes ago, kesiak said:

I think the moment it became obvious Madonna wasn't just a bimbo and that she was clear about owning her sexuality (as opposed to having it displayed for straight male audience's pleasure) was when heterosexual men went off her.

THIS. Probably when she took the BOY TOY belt off and guys realized (if they ever did) it was a joke. 

 

Seriously tho, it was probably The Sex Book. Not to stereotype, but I feel like straight guys were/are a bit conservative with their sex. Or at least want their sex partner to have an innocence that was definitely not on display with Madonna at this time. She was ferocious and domineering and in control, and that probably scared a lot of guys. Throw on top some AIDS charity work, an all gay male dance group and a song about a feeling they couldn't understand in their wildest dreams (VOGUE). Interestingly she became less "fuckable" when she explored her most sexual era, IMHO. You could probably scream sexism or misogyny but people are attracted to what they're attracted to, and I think Dita turned alot of guys off. 

 

Thats just the first thing that comes to mind. 

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 by the late 80s and early 90s she became much more clear about her association with gay culture, and also became a much more outspoken person in general, so of course the straight men left her, and a lot of women too. also queer men sometimes live vicariously through strong females in the arts so they have attached to her for longer.

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The gay connection and inflences have always been clear, and also the fact that many female popstars are gay icon.

What I find interesting is that strong and evident change of fanbase, which I don't think happened to many other singers or celebrities. 

In the mid Eighties all girls wanted to dress like Madonna, everybody fancied her. But then when she became opinionated and started to show how she owned her sexuality, many went off with her.

Definitely the Sex Book is important but believe me, it happened before. As @Aiwa08pointed out, Express yourself and Vogue are probably "gayer" than previous singles, especially in their videos, showing naked men and gay dancers. Maybe the Mary Lambert videos, with the double image virgin/whore, fit a larger audience, while the David Fincher period shows a different Madonna. And finally the BAT, more theatrical and less rock than WTG, with the group of gay dancers and their lives portrayed in TOD, determined a clear change of direction. Vogue in XViii century style is also very gay! I wonder if this was intentional and if M realized about losing part of her audience.

 

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2 hours ago, The Same Parts said:

Do any female singers really have a significant and dedicated straight male following?

THIS!  It comes down to fuckability. If Ariana put in a gold tooth and chopped her hair off and said "if I take you from behind..."  you'd see dudes dropping like flies. 

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2 minutes ago, RUADJAI said:

THIS!  It comes down to fuckability.

The only way I can see it not coming down to fuckability is when there's another cultural element in play. Gaga is the mother of monsters, Beyonce has a lot to say about the black experience. I truly can't think of any other examples where a female artist appeals to straight men.

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I think that the beginning is true blue alum era. Madonna cut the hair with platinum blonde then bring The legendary golden hollywood era back to the present with modernized style. All the gay community falling in love with her.

I mean I can still remember the moment when I saw she start dance with that black suit with that look in the papa don't preach MV.

I mean we could watch legendary golden hollywood films. Marilyn monroe, Marlene dietrich, Vivien leigh, Lada turner, Bette daivs.. you named it but they are all dead. It was a past. we 80's teenager kids couldn't watch them as alive real person. Then Madonna bring that glamorous look back. That was shocker. I mean when True blue MV came out whole worlds' news headline was "Madonna cut the hair!" "look at that Madonna's new hair style!"

But I said it's just "beginning". Because straight men can still loves her and that's not a taboo showing to the world they love her at that time. 

Then Like a prayer era began then straight men started feel threatened by Madonna. Because she started showing her strong , sexy and independent powerful woman's voice. She clearly showing to the world she is the one has power. Not a Men. So straight men started feel threatened by Madonna. 

Then Erotica and Sex book era began and most of straight men say goodbye to Madonna. It's very interesting to watch that straight Men's reaction about Madonna's Sex Book. Because straight Men loves porn and naked woman. But Madonna's Sex book is very different with these. 

She naked by herself not a by men. She has power, she is decision maker not a men. So straight men feeling no sex appeal from her. That's the moment straight guys shut their mouth up about Madonna. I think.

And her that attitude which "I do whatever I want. If you don't like it then fuck off" makes gay people feel strong and "Yes I can do too just like Madonna!"

Gay community owe her so much.

 

 

P.S 

And about straight women. It looks like some of them really love Erotica and Sex book era because Madonna's act empowering them but some of them looks like hates it. some of them acted like this "eww it's too much! no thanks! I'm a Lady!" :bothered2:

Then Madonna bring straight women's love back music and ray of light era. Especially DWT tour era.

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oh by the way I always think that Madonna's financially successful era is when she loved by straight women era. Not a she loved by gay men era.

1.Madonna + Like a virgin era. : whole the straight girls and young women want to be "Madonna Wannabe" : What a financially success!

2.True blue era : She became legendary old silver screen level of sexy star and began to loved by gay men. And still straight women and straight men loves her. : Yes!! what a financially success!

3.Like a prayer era : her empowering songs, MVs, and powerful speech.. she became the forever Gay ICON. And straight women also love her empowering act. but few straight men slowly started falling apart from her. : Yes! what a financially success!

4. Erotica era :  Gay men loves it. but a lot of straight women hate it. it seems like it is too much for them and most of straight men hate it. they seems like couldn't feel sex appeal from it because she is the one charge not a men. So basically only gay men loves. : financially not that great in compare her previous album sales.

5.Bedtime era : she try but she got same reaction just like erotica era. : financially not that great.

6. Ray of light and Music era : she refrain her sexual expression and then most of straight women and some straight men came back to her. : What a financially successful era!

7. American life : you all know she even had no chance from start. so pass this era

8. Confession on a dance floor era : she embrace straight women + gay + straight old men which loved abba when they are young. : what a successful era!

So, yeah.. I know that Madonna is the Gay Icon. But I think that  she really became successful financially when she loved by straight women. I mean I think that her most successful era is when she loved by straight women.

 

 

 

 

 

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Interesting topic. This discussion coincides nicely with this article published for The Guardian today exploring gay culture's love of female pop stars. Several of the points raised in this thread are addresssed - very thoughtful and worth a read!

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/sep/04/they-just-wanted-to-silence-her-the-dark-side-of-gay-stan-culture

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Not totally on topic but interesting tho

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/sep/04/they-just-wanted-to-silence-her-the-dark-side-of-gay-stan-culture

'They just wanted to silence her': the dark side of gay stan culture

For gay men, ‘stanning’ – being a super fan of – female pop stars can be a valuable part of your identity. But too often this fandom lapses into misogyny and body shaming

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AMAZING TOPIC @Enrico!

Wish I could've lived and seen that time when M was universally loved and when it wasn't shameful! It's amazing to even consider to think today that straight men LOVED Madonna in the 80s and that it was okay... but then again this was because of her "sexiness" that she unabashedly showed, as was mentioned here. After LAP and during the BAT/Vogue periods, I see why she became a signature GAY ICON for sure... it goes without saying. I do believe her involvement with HIV/AIDS activism gave many gay men a sense of comfort, power, and guidance BACK WHEN IT WAS EVEN SHAMEFUL TO TALK ABOUT AIDS. 

Growing up in a strictly conservative, traditional, CATHOLIC country (The Philippines), Madonna was seen as a gay thing. Yes... at 9 years old I was already aware of how gay she is LOL. I remember being so discreet about listening to her and definitely very careful about watching "The Immaculate Collection" videos. It was just widely known by the late 90s/early 2000s that Madonna was just... GAY. I've come a long way from hiding my obsession for Madonna because of my strict Catholic Filipino upbringing to really being outspoken and publicly expressing my love for her now that I live in the USA. 

Here in the US, I feel MADONNA is more widely considered a GAY ICON without shame, thanks to the liberal tendencies of this country. Now it's just a little saddening she has been getting the ageist attacks -- I think only here in the USA is where ageism really hits her hard cause I know "aging" is much more appreciated and respected mostly anywhere outside the U.S./North America.

But yeah... MADONNA was already setup to be a GAY thing since even before she started. Gay men love their rare strong female characters that embody beauty, glamour, strength and escapism that help them get through adversities in their lives. Indeed, someone like that is rare and Madonna fits that. For sure she may be the first actual GAY ICON in today's music history (of course CHER but c'mon... MADONNA is gayerrrrr!)

Still alive and will never stop! LONG LIVE!

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1 hour ago, cailohfornia said:

Growing up in a strictly conservative, traditional, CATHOLIC country (The Philippines), Madonna was seen as a gay thing. Yes... at 9 years old I was already aware of how gay she is LOL. I remember being so discreet about listening to her and definitely very careful about watching "The Immaculate Collection" videos. It was just widely known by the late 90s/early 2000s that Madonna was just... GAY. I've come a long way from hiding my obsession for Madonna because of my strict Catholic Filipino upbringing to really being outspoken and publicly expressing my love for her now that I live in the USA. 

Strange, 'cause I never realized this connection between Madonna and gay culture until very late, not even when I saw Truth or Dare. Maybe I was still ashamed and insecure about my sexuality, but I didn't realize how provocative it was then for everyone. I was not ashamed of being a Madonna fan because I wasn't aware that this was a gay thing. I thought that the problems came with the religious provocations and the Vatican.

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On 9/4/2018 at 5:16 PM, discohub said:

Not totally on topic but interesting tho

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/sep/04/they-just-wanted-to-silence-her-the-dark-side-of-gay-stan-culture

'They just wanted to silence her': the dark side of gay stan culture

For gay men, ‘stanning’ – being a super fan of – female pop stars can be a valuable part of your identity. But too often this fandom lapses into misogyny and body shaming

There is so much wrong with this article. Its jumbling together a superfan hating on their own idol, which it barely gives an example of, online behavior in general in the form of memes and the sharing of information whether it be good or bad, and the hating from one fanbase against another fanbases idol which does exist and is rampant but is not the same thing as hating on your own idol. It gives an example of guys heckling Judy Garland when she was too drunk to finish her show. But this is more of an issue with paying for a ticket and not getting what you paid for. 

"The love-hate dynamic of gay stan culture that Bronski describes is now largely mediated through social media. Heckling in smoky nightclubs has been replaced by “hate memes”, when stans circulate unflattering edited pictures or examples of a star’s least-becoming behaviour"

If and when we circulate an unflattering picture of M, I would say 99.99% of the time its not with ill intent and more just to see an outtake in its unedited form. The "truth" if you will. Not to mention unflattering is subjective. 

And finally there are certain things that became viral sensations and are not gay exclusive or fanbase exclusive. Britney's 2007 meltdown which is mentioned. or Beyonce's Super Bowl photos. This is not gay men hating on their idol or someone else's  idol. These are just humorous happenings that translate to everyone. To make it a gay fanbase exclusive is just false. 

 

 

Sorry, that article just irritated the hell out of me. 

 

Edit: I forced myself to finish the article and at least there's a quote from someone who has a little sense. 

“Because the object of a fan’s adoration becomes very important to the fan’s happiness, when there is some sort of disappointment, that brings a strong – and sometimes problematic – response. That is the dynamic behind the ‘mood swings’ you see in fandom, where fans love something one day and turn on it the next. It’s not about misogyny. It cuts across gender, sexuality, type of fandom, even time. Sports fans sometimes turn on star players in the same way. I don’t think it’s a male-female thing or a gay-straight thing. I think it’s a human thing.”

 

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On 9/3/2018 at 1:28 AM, RUADJAI said:

THIS. Probably when she took the BOY TOY belt off and guys realized (if they ever did) it was a joke. 

 

Seriously tho, it was probably The Sex Book. Not to stereotype, but I feel like straight guys were/are a bit conservative with their sex. Or at least want their sex partner to have an innocence that was definitely not on display with Madonna at this time. She was ferocious and domineering and in control, and that probably scared a lot of guys. Throw on top some AIDS charity work, an all gay male dance group and a song about a feeling they couldn't understand in their wildest dreams (VOGUE). Interestingly she became less "fuckable" when she explored her most sexual era, IMHO. You could probably scream sexism or misogyny but people are attracted to what they're attracted to, and I think Dita turned alot of guys off. 

 

Thats just the first thing that comes to mind. 

 

And some straight guys (myself included) love how strong, "ferocious and domineering and in control" she is. And I love the song Vogue, even though I don't understand the feeling it is about, I love its melody and rhythm. It is amazing that she could write a song capturing such a feeling, in spite of not being a gay man.

Her most sexual era strongly resonates with my sexuality. But I can imagine that for a pig part of straight men it made her less "fuckable".

Regarding if there is sexism or misogyny in this: I guess there is, even though it is mostly about sexual preference. But there is also this sad fact that many straight men who sexually prefer strong and domineering women are also sexist and misogynist...

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi,
Thanks to every body for the wav's n' flacs but is this a serious question ?
From the very beginning ??
Even without knowing anything about clubbing with dance teachers or whatever went on.
She always looked liked she'd 'help'.
The knowing looks about being thought of a 'A Slut' came with the second album ???
I hope she makes another record with that long-haired guy but i'm not holding my breath.
THAT Madonna was fun.
That's why she's still around ?
Her recent stuff hasn't been on my radar I thought but just yesterday I was humming 'Give It To Me' & 'Miles Away', I went 'n played them LOUD.
The bitch record, dear jessie and most of the 'with guests' tunes are the only time I've thought, Eww No.

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  • 1 month later...

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