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Celebration... Where is the justice for M?


Sultrysully
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1 hour ago, Turuncan said:

None of those songs were “hits”. If we are gonna take charts into consideration, I can give you even more “hits” from MJ, even after his death. And again, he was not even allowed to make albums due to lies and all those trials. This makes his chart numbers even bigger.

I am not saying Madonna lied. I am saying the comparison you made was pointless.

On the other hand, there are different concepts of discrimination when it comes to sexism. Imagine Michael kissing Justin Timberlake and Usher on the mouth in front of millions on an awards show like Madonna did in 2003. They would have been labeled as “faggots” ever since, which none of Madonna, Britney, and Christina suffered.

For longevity and consistence, again no. Michael’s and Prince’s careers were longer than Madonna’s when they died. Michael started making #1 records in early ‘70s with his brothers. This makes five decades when you take his posthumous albums and singles. And in his lifetime, none of MJ’s albums flopped the way “Erotica” or “American Life” did.

Uhm, I get your points (sort of) but the last real hit Michael had was You Rock My World in 2001. Recent Drake vocals feature really doesn't count as a solo effort, Love Never Felt So Good I suppose is another story but even with that Madonna's career post 2000 had more hits  (you're not seriously counting his older songs that charted after his death?). And both, "Erotica" and "American Life" sold pretty much the same as "Invincible" yet managed to produce longer lasting hits and with time their value was reconsidered which, to a degree, admittedly happened with "Invincible" but nobody sees that album as a misunderstood-at-a-time, influential piece of work the way "Erotica" is for instance. 

Also, judging by the quality of songwriting on "Invincible" and the posthumous releases, perhaps it's best Michael wasn't allowed to make more albums cause it would turn him into Prince whose output was ridiculously prolific but the quality of which was often questionable at best. 

As for your sexism comment - Adam Lambert got a lot of heat for kissing one of his male musicians during American Music Awards in 2009. I don't see what's sexist about it however, that's just pure homophobia. Madonna was heavily criticised for her stint with Britney and Christina as well by the way, I'm sure you can recall the uproar it caused.

By the way, I'm a huge fan of both Prince and Michael Jackson :).

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1 minute ago, kesiak said:

Uhm, I get your points (sort of) but the last real hit Michael had was You Rock My World in 2001. Recent Drake vocals feature really doesn't count as a solo effort, Love Never Felt So Good I suppose is another story but even with that Madonna's career post 2000 had more hits. 

I talked in the logic of the poster who listed ‘Celebration’, ‘Give Me All Your Luvin’’, and ‘Living for Love’ as hits. When compared to these, all of MJ’s post-1995 singles should be considered as MEGA hits. And why is ‘Love Never Felt So Good’ another story? It is an MJ song and a solid proof that his “new” songs are still charting high. No I did not mean his old songs that re-chart.

7 minutes ago, kesiak said:

And both, "Erotica" and "American Life" sold pretty much the same as "Invincible" yet managed to produce longer lasting hits and with time their value was reconsidered which, to a degree, admittedly happened with "Invincible" but nobody sees that album as a misunderstood-at-a-time, influential piece of work the way "Erotica" is for instance. 

Not quite. “Invincible” sold more than 10 million copies, more than the sales of “Erotica” and “American Life” combined. It was not misunderstood, it is worse: It was misguided and misused. Sony deliberately killed it because Michael let them know that he would not renew his contract. Almost no promotion, no singles after ‘You Rock My World’, no videos, no world tour... none of which was the case for Madonna’s aforementioned albums. This also makes the success of the album even bigger.

12 minutes ago, kesiak said:

Also, judging by the quality of songwriting on "Invincible" and the posthumous releases, perhaps it's best Michael wasn't allowed to make more albums cause it would turn him into Prince whose output was ridiculously prolific but the quality of which was often questionable at best. 

Excuse me? It was a masterpiece and ahead of its time. Great songs with great melodies and meticulous production, R&B at its best! The posthumous releases are another story as they were just demos overproduced by Sony, and they even admitted they used someone else’s vocals on some songs. And as a fan, I truly wish his not making music was his choice, not due to lies and slander.

18 minutes ago, kesiak said:

As for your sexism comment - Adam Lambert got a lot of heat for kissing one of his male musicians during American Music Awards in 2009. I don't see what's sexist about it however, that's just pure homophobia. Madonna was heavily criticised for her stint with Britney and Christina as well by the way, I'm sure you can recall the uproar it caused.

Adam Lambert is an out gay. And as you said, it is a matter of homophobia, a whole different thing. What is sexist is, as I explained already, that kiss did not cause the sexualities of Madonna and the girls to be questioned in a way men’s would. And my point is, unlike the popular belief, sexism does not only affect women, it affects men too.

And controversy and backlash are two different things, too. So that “uproar” is not something Madonna would complain about, I believe.

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20 minutes ago, Turuncan said:

Not quite. “Invincible” sold more than 10 million copies, more than the sales of “Erotica” and “American Life” combined. It was not misunderstood, it is worse: It was misguided and misused. Sony deliberately killed it because Michael let them know that he would not renew his contract. Almost no promotion, no singles after ‘You Rock My World’, no videos, no world tour... none of which was the case for Madonna’s aforementioned albums. This also makes the success of the album even bigger.

Excuse me? It was a masterpiece and ahead of its time. Great songs with great melodies and meticulous production, R&B at its best! The posthumous releases are another story as they were just demos overproduced by Sony, and they even admitted they used someone else’s vocals on some songs. And as a fan, I truly wish his not making music was his choice, not due to lies and slander.

I blame Wiki - I think it says 6 million there. I actually think "Invincible" is a decent album but it really doesn't hold its own when compared to his earlier stuff - even "American Life" had better reviews. Ahead of its time though? Come on :).

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1 hour ago, Turuncan said:

None of those songs were “hits”. If we are gonna take charts into consideration, I can give you even more “hits” from MJ, even after his death. And again, he was not even allowed to make albums due to lies and all those trials. This makes his chart numbers even bigger.

I am not saying Madonna lied. I am saying the comparison you made was pointless.

On the other hand, there are different concepts of discrimination when it comes to sexism. Imagine Michael kissing Justin Timberlake and Usher on the mouth in front of millions on an awards show like Madonna did in 2003. They would have been labeled as “faggots” ever since, which none of Madonna, Britney, and Christina suffered.

For longevity and consistence, again no. Michael’s and Prince’s careers were longer than Madonna’s when they died. Michael started making #1 records in early ‘70s with his brothers. This makes five decades when you take his posthumous albums and singles. And in his lifetime, none of MJ’s albums flopped the way “Erotica” or “American Life” did.

1.  Billboard UK says those songs were hits.  The US is not all that matters.

2. Michael Jackson and Prince were not consistent in the nineties and two thousands, chart wise or artistically.  

3.  Erotica sold 6 million copies.. and American Life sold 5 million xopies.  Neither was a "flop".

4.  Madonna's experience with sexism in the industry goes far beyond a single event.  Madonna has been a target since Like a Virgin.  Being called a "slut" and a "bitch" for 35 years is arguably much worse than being called a "faggot" for an imagined performance.

5.  I am not taking away from Prince or Micjael Jackson in all of this, only offering that Madonna is at the same level and is not credited as such.

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1 hour ago, kesiak said:

I blame Wiki - I think it says 6 million there. I actually think "Invincible" is a decent album but it really doesn't hold its own when compared to his earlier stuff - even "American Life" had better reviews. Ahead of its time though? Come on :).

In the summer of 2002, Sony officially declared that it had sold more than 10 million copies. Even if we pretend it has not sold more in the 17 years inbetween, it is obviously a better seller than those Madonna albums. Review-wise, remember it was 2001 and dissing MJ was the “it” thing back then. People did not really listen to the album, and the reviews were mostly about Michael’s private life and deteriorating appearance rather than the album itself, and also remember that all his post-“Thriller” albums suffered from “not being as good as ‘Thriller’”. I am not even talking about the great reviews it got. And I stand by my opinion, unless we are expecting another “Thriller” from him, the album is brilliant and meticulously produced just like every MJ album. That slick R&B sound, heavy beats, mixture of different genres such as rock and hip-hop, lush ballads like ‘Speechless’ and ‘Don’t Walk Away’, the storytelling in ‘Whatever Happens’, angry songs like ‘Unbreakable’ and ‘Privacy’, references to his old works like on ‘The Lost Children’ and ‘Threatened’... shall I count more? It was coherent, classy, and way much better than the majority of the albums released around that time. I am quite sure that likes of Usher would be getting great reviews if they had come up with this album.

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1 hour ago, Sultrysully said:

1.  Billboard UK says those songs were hits.  The US is not all that matters.

2. Michael Jackson and Prince were not consistent in the nineties and two thousands, chart wise or artistically.  

3.  Erotica sold 6 million copies.. and American Life sold 5 million xopies.  Neither was a "flop".

4.  Madonna's experience with sexism in the industry goes far beyond a single event.  Madonna has been a target since Like a Virgin.  Being called a "slut" and a "bitch" for 35 years is arguably much worse than being called a "faggot" for an imagined performance.

5.  I am not taking away from Prince or Micjael Jackson in all of this, only offering that Madonna is at the same level and is not credited as such.

1. And I gave you MJ singles that charted on the UK singles, two of which were charttoppers, as an answer to your “not successful after 1995” claim. Many of these were not even released in the US, and I don’t even remember mentioning the US myself.

2. I don’t know about Prince, but Michael was much more consistent and successful than Madonna in the ‘90s. Do likes of “Dangerous” and “HIStory” ring any bells to you? How about “Blood on the Dance Floor”? Singles off these albums?

3. Those figures are what they achieved up until now, if they are true. During the time they were released, they were both considered as flops, and singles-wise they still are. And they both sold less than MJ’s “Invincible”, an album everybody tries to show as a flop.

4. I am not underestimating Madonna’s struggle with sexism and misogyny. It is just that you tried to blame sexism for her not being as idolized as MJ and Prince, and attempted to show her more consistent and successful as opposed to them, which is, obviously not the case. That’s what I replied to. And I do not agree with you at all. Her legacy is, and always will be, rightfully respected. A lazy-ass compilation will not change that.

And don’t even get me started on what MJ was -and still is!!!- being blamed for, how his career was -and still is!!!- tarnished, how he struggled against racism etc etc.

5. Good for you! Maybe we can admire Madonna without comparing her to other artists and trying to underestimate them then! I see many Madonna fans do that on many different places, and as a fan of some other artists as well, I really do not appreciate it.

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Not sure how this turned into a MJ discussion thread but lemme point out the big elephant in the room: they're revered because they are gone, the kind of nostalgic newfound appreciation from the public you don't want to experience as an artist.

Instead of lamenting that M doesn't get enough attention from the youngins, let's rejoice that she's still a badass female rebel, actively working, creating and experimenting with her sound and image for her 14th album. Friendly reminder that Jackson only released six studio albums during his adult lifetime, shall we be grateful.

On-Topic: Greatest hits albums have been replaced by playlists in the streaming generation, so don't hold your breath trying to find a perfect tracklist to encapsulate four decades of hits. Even with all its flaws, Celebration is a solid effort for the casual fan that doesn't care about geeky stuff like radio single edits or chart peaks. About the tracklist:

1. I think it's 80s-heavy in an attempt to replace The Immaculate Collection as the go-to compilation for the casual listener. ~They failed.~

2. Mastering errors aside, I like the fact that it's not chronological, with the modern sounding megahits on the front line (Hung Up, Music, 4 Minutes), so you know this isn't a nostalgia ride. The accompanying artwork is sublime and iconic, by the way.

3. Warner's strategic decision to leave out some big hits makes sense to increase back catalogue sales. Just think about it, only the singles from The First Album were fully represented.

Like A Virgin - Angel

True Blue - True Blue

Like A Prayer - Oh Father, Keep It Together

Erotica - Deeper And Deeper, Rain

Bedtime Stories - Human Nature

Something To Remember - You'll See

Evita - Don't Cry For Me Argentina

Ray Of Light - The Power Of Good-Bye

Music (Int. Edition) - American Pie

American Life - American Life

COADF - Get Together, Jump

Hard Candy - Give It 2 Me

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16 hours ago, Turuncan said:

None of those songs were “hits”. If we are gonna take charts into consideration, I can give you even more “hits” from MJ, even after his death. And again, he was not even allowed to make albums due to lies and all those trials. This makes his chart numbers even bigger.

I am not saying Madonna lied. I am saying the comparison you made was pointless.

On the other hand, there are different concepts of discrimination when it comes to sexism. Imagine Michael kissing Justin Timberlake and Usher on the mouth in front of millions on an awards show like Madonna did in 2003. They would have been labeled as “faggots” ever since, which none of Madonna, Britney, and Christina suffered.

For longevity and consistence, again no. Michael’s and Prince’s careers were longer than Madonna’s when they died. Michael started making #1 records in early ‘70s with his brothers. This makes five decades when you take his posthumous albums and singles. And in his lifetime, none of MJ’s albums flopped the way “Erotica” or “American Life” did.

Huh?  MJ released a bunch of solo flop Albums in the 70s before Off The Wall and Invincible sold about the same as Erotica.  So please stop

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MJ released 10 solo studio albums while alive and 2 more posthumously after his death.  12 in total

 

His first 4 solo studio albums in the 70s were flops, only one got a sales certification, Ben (which makes Erotica look like a blockbuster) and one peaked at #101(!)  on the BILLBOARD albums charts

 

And yes they count, just like Janet's 2 pre Control flop albums count

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19 hours ago, Sultrysully said:

Madonna has had hits in the last decade.  Celebration (2009), Give Me All Your Luvin' (2012), and Living for Love (2014).  And you are dead wrong about M not being victimized by sexism.  Nobody ever bitched about Michael Jackson or Prince needing to retire, despite the hits still coming and massive tours.  Madonna carries a lot of records that men once carried and she is largely dismissed as something less than she is.  Listen or relisten to Madonna's Billboard Woman of the Year speech.  Did she lie?  Was she confused?  I think not.  As for Prince and Michael Jackson's record of hits, I maintain that Madonna was far more consistent over the four decades.  I am not sure who said that there were no hits for the two after a certain date but I do know that Madonna did not speak and fade after Vogue in 1990.  

Well Prince hasn't had a top 10 hit in the US since 1994!  And MJ since 2001 (barely) not counting the posthumous Justin song that went top 10 in 2013

 

Since 1994, in the US alone, Madonna had I'll Remember, Secret, Take a Bow, You'll See, Don't Cry For Me Argentina, Frozen, Ray of Light, Music, Don't Tell Me, Die Another Day,Hung Up,  4 Minutes, Give Me All Your Living

Power of Goodbye just missed the top 10 peaking at #11 in 1998.  Beautiful Stranger and American Pie peaked at #19 and #29 respectively on airplay alone and would of went top 10 if they had official singles releases in the US

 

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1 hour ago, Mp1992 said:

Huh?  MJ released a bunch of solo flop Albums in the 70s before Off The Wall and Invincible sold about the same as Erotica.  So please stop

Are you out of your fucking mind? “Got to Be There” sold more than 3 million copies, “Ben” 5 million (and includes a US #1 single), and “Music & Me” over 2 million. Add series of successful albums with his brothers as well. And “Invincible” sold over 10 million copies worldwide, something “Erotica” is yet to achieve. So please take your own advice.

 

1 hour ago, Mp1992 said:

Madonna had more top 10 hits in the US  in the 90s and 2000s than MJ and Prince's COMBINED times two!  

 

Crazy isn't it?

Did you also take into consideration that MJ released less singles and albums than Madonna in that time span?

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12 minutes ago, Turuncan said:

Are you out of your fucking mind? “Got to Be There” sold more than 3 million copies, “Ben” 5 million (and includes a US #1 single), and “Music & Me” over 2 million. Add series of successful albums with his brothers as well. And “Invincible” sold over 10 million copies worldwide, something “Erotica” is yet to achieve. So please take your own advice.

 

Did you also take into consideration that MJ released less singles and albums than Madonna in that time span?

Those albums sold that much AFTER MJ became a global superstar in the 80s.  Music and Me peajed at #101 inb the US, YES #101 peak and you just contradicted yourself, first you claim that MJ didn't release any flop albums like Madonna and now you're pointing out 3 albums of his that sold less than Erotica, which you called a "flop".  Interesting....

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23 minutes ago, Mp1992 said:

Those albums sold that much AFTER MJ became a global superstar in the 80s.  Music and Me peajed at #101 inb the US, YES #101 peak and you just contradicted yourself, first you claim that MJ didn't release any flop albums like Madonna and now you're pointing out 3 albums of his that sold less than Erotica, which you called a "flop".  Interesting....

Gosh, that’s the case, can’t you understand?! And you seriously believe “Erotica” sold 6 million in 1992 and 1993, not as a part of her back catalogue. Wow. Deluded much?

And make sure you have good comprehension skills before you blame people with contradictions. We were talking about singles first, and I stressed his singles in the ‘70s with his brothers as opposed to the claim that his singles were not as successful as Madonna’s through four decades.

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50 minutes ago, hydrangea said:

Agree. 80s, 90s and 00s + new songs.

The standard edition just would include the best from the best, the most known songs by the general public.

Standard would also have been a double disc one, with likes of ‘Rain’, ‘You’ll See’, ‘American Life’, and ‘Give It 2 Me’ replacing ‘Everybody’, ‘Burning Up’, ‘Hollywood’, and ‘Miles Away’.

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1 hour ago, Future Lover said:

Can we not speak about MJ at all? The only topic we need about him is the one about the documentary. 

I will say one thing, both men started their careers earlier than Madonna did, and they had about 20ish pretty good years, same as Madge, if we're being completely honest about them all. Seems to be a pattern.

I would say 25 from Madonna, 1984-2009 when she left Warner's

 

Don't forget , Hard Candy was the 9th top selling Album Worldwide of 2008

 

Prince had only about 10 good years from 1982-1992, because of his debacle with Waners, he did have ONE post 1992 hit, but he was no longer a big selling act.  At all...

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Yeah, I wouldn't exclude the occasional success after 2007, but that's sort of my last cut-off point for Madge in terms of general, top-of-the-world type of success. She'll always be a successful album and tour artist, but in terms of the general public and a part of her fanbase, that's where it started slipping. For example, I'm still a pretty devout fan and I frequent this forum frequently, and yet, I wouldn't say I wholeheartedly love her work since then, it was always a mixed bag (JUST MY OPINION). Once again, I'll reiterate that "Rebel Heart" had a lot of, well, heart in it, but it wasn't commercially successful. 

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