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Seeing both ends of the stick....


BillyBongo
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This just kind of occurred to me recently. I first properly got into Madonna when I was around 15, Erotica came out, I was blown away by the album, the videos, the controversy, the times, the ideas, it was all pretty much perfect for a 15 year old gay male that wasn't sure of his identity (or whatever the hell you call it) but one thing happened a lot in that era and it bugged the shit out of me. "Madonna is crap now, she used to be so good but now she's just desperate." That kind of talk used to annoy me for 2 reasons. 1. No, it wasn't crap, i loved the music and 2. I often felt like i'd missed out on something special that had gone before. I don't mean necessarily the music but the general feel of what had gone down before i joined the party and had i indeed missed the best part?

 

Now, cut to over 20 years later and i found myself writing a comment on you tube on the Bitch I'm Madonna video saying that this is crap. You people have no idea how good this party used to be.

Before you get the pitchforks out, let me make my point. Back in 1992, i literally could not understand how anyone on the planet could call Madonna/Erotica/The Whole Damn Era crap but they did. And now I find myself at the opposite end, I cannot understand how anyone thinks this is good but people do. Rebel Herat is highly acclaimed but to be honest, I thinker's shit. But then I think back to 1992 and I put myself in their place and I think ok, yes i can kind of understand. 

Not even sure if I'm getting my point across here. hopefully i am!

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For me the worst thing about M(And has been since 2005) is her whole image and the fact that she HAS to surround herself with people half her age to make herself seem/look young ? Not to mention the endless photoshopping on her pics too ? Just make great music and age gracefully ?

I remember the Erotica period very well(I was 17) - i was in college and everywhere it was all about the sex book and everyone was bashing her - saying she had gone too far - it was a very dark period in her career(Maybe ahead of her time too) now fans(me included) love that album - look how nuts people went over those leaks of shame and you are the one ? it also spawned her 2 best music videos imo(Bad Girl and Rain) plus i love the Girlie Show now too(Was never that fond of it at the time)

I havent seen the new show(Too expensive for me) but im looking forward to seeing on blu-ray but i know its not gonna be how the show was originally presented(Over edited to death im sure) as for the album i agree that BIM is one of her worst songs/videos ever but overall its a mediocre album for me and one i dont think is gonna go down as a classic like ROL, LAP or True Blue - she needs to work with Orbit or Leonard or maybe Pettibone for the next record- we need a new sound not this R&B crap :(( she used to be a trend setter in music now she seems to follow the others now which is a shame 

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@@BillyBongo , I am totally disagree on your judgment of the Rebel Heart album: I think that if they kept out this album 3 or 4 trash 'songs' (but can we really define  tracks as BIM as 'songs'?) and if they had chosen to add other songs that at the end  have been discarded, and if they had decided to hold the early versions of some songs (I'm thinking about Messiah, Joan Of Arc, Hold Tight) this album would have been a real  masterpiece.However, a reproach must be done: I think that after 35 years from the beginning of her career, Madonna still has not learned which tracks  deserve to be promoted, and which not: fuck, I was only 13 years old when I was listened to Like A Prayer, an album full of songs characterized by mature and intelligent lyrics (some of these were true poetry), and now that I'm 40,  after almost 30 years, do I have to listen to childish crap like BIM, Unapologetic Bitch, and Autotune Baby (and yessss,  also Holy Water...)???? At least she should have the good sense not to choose BIM as 3rd single, and give space in her show to songs like Hold Tight, and Joan Of Arc, Wash All Over  me (to mention a few), rather than the demential  songs that I've mentioned a moment ago.There were so many songs on this album that deserve to be promoted.. Songs with an intense and mature content, but unfortunately, for 'business needs', she always makes the wrong choice, by preferring to pander to the (sometimes demential) tastes  of new generations...
 
Too bad ... RH might sell many more copies if only she had given priority to release as singles the  songs characterized by intense and mature   lyrics ...
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I don't think its about which songs have mature lyrics, she can be fun as hell and silly and the music can be great i.e. Hung Up, Music, etc, etc... and there are songs with "mature" lyrics that just aren't mind blowing i.e. Living For Love. 

 

My only criticism of her creative process for Rebel Heart would be that i'd have prefered if she had chosen 10-13 great tracks and perfected them instead of spending too much time mixing 20+ tracks and then the music video, release, artworks, remixes, imagery, new website, all seemed rushed and thrown together at the last minute. 

 

Honestly tho people seem pressed over Bitch I'm Madonna and I don't really get it. It's trashy on purpose, how can you take it seriously.... just have fun with it.  :oi:

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It baffles me a person who did Erotica and 20 years later is making something like SEX, Body Shop, Autotune Baby. She used to know how to talk about sex, she's just lost the touch in the matter.

 

Rebel Heart could have been an amazing album, she was so lost at it with so many people on it, it sounds unfinished, unorganized. It does have good songs on it but in 24 songs with 60% fillers

 

We all miss the Madonna releasing masterpieces, being confident with her image, not be too trying hard to look and act like a little girl, being political and insightful, you can look at the interviews from Erotica and American Life and the intelligence and property that she used to speak of things, not shallow in her comments like right now. Her image being the pop chameleon trendsetter, now she is following the trends. Now look at Bjork, Janet, Kate Bush, old women can make masterpieces on their 50s tho

 

But what can we do? Just be happy that she's still making music

 

J

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I don't think its about which songs have mature lyrics, she can be fun as hell and silly and the music can be great i.e. Hung Up, Music, etc, etc... and there are songs with "mature" lyrics that just aren't mind blowing i.e. Living For Love. 

 

My only criticism of her creative process for Rebel Heart would be that i'd have prefered if she had chosen 10-13 great tracks and perfected them instead of spending too much time mixing 20+ tracks and then the music video, release, artworks, remixes, imagery, new website, all seemed rushed and thrown together at the last minute. 

 

Honestly tho people seem pressed over Bitch I'm Madonna and I don't really get it. It's trashy on purpose, how can you take it seriously.... just have fun with it.  :oi:

Yes, I understand that BIM it is a song not to be taken seriously ... but I would have given priority, for the release as single, at one of the many excellent songs contained in RH.

 

And yes... also the artworks (terrible, in my opinion,  the red & black artwork of the Deluxe Version), the music videos (LFL & BIM - but i save Ghosttown), website and remix, all seemed rushed and thrown together at the last minute.... It's true...

 
The remixes are no longer what they once were in the 80's/90's... Especially the remixes of ghosttown, that are really awful (in my opinion...)
God, please, return us our good Shep Pettibone, I miss him
 
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Yes, I understand that BIM it is a song not to be taken seriously ... but I would have given priority, for the release as single, at one of the many excellent songs contained in RH.

 

And yes... also the artworks (terrible, in my opinion,  the red & black artwork of the Deluxe Version), the music videos (LFL & BIM - but i save Ghosttown), website and remix, all seemed rushed and thrown together at the last minute.... It's true...

 
The remixes are no longer what they once were in the 80's/90's... Especially the remixes of ghosttown, that are really awful (in my opinion...)
God, please, return us our good Shep Pettibone, I miss him
 

 

 

Honestly the only song that I'd have released other than the tracks that were released is Rebel Heart, granted not as the acoustic mix that's on the album.... 

 

Rebel Heart shoulda been an epic medieval video like those bits from the Iconic backdrop. To me that song was both the present and the past, it's the one that best represents the album and just makes you feel nostalgic and proud to be a fan, even if you're a new fan.

 

Ghosttown was a great video but I would've made it a "short film" and included a chunk of Heartbreak City and maybe Messiah, it would've fit very well with the concept and it would've been more of an event. Would've been like 3 videos in one which would be a dream come true.

 

I'm still very grateful for what we did get this era, messy releases and all. And wether she likes it or not, having the demos was also very exciting and some of those versions are the reason why I still have so much faith in her talent as a songwriter.

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Honestly the only song that I'd have released other than the tracks that were released is Rebel Heart, granted not as the acoustic mix that's on the album.... 

 

Rebel Heart shoulda been an epic medieval video like those bits from the Iconic backdrop. To me that song was both the present and the past, it's the one that best represents the album and just makes you feel nostalgic and proud to be a fan, even if you're a new fan.

 

Ghosttown was a great video but I would've made it a "short film" and included a chunk of Heartbreak City and maybe Messiah, it would've fit very well with the concept and it would've been more of an event. Would've been like 3 videos in one which would be a dream come true.

 

I'm still very grateful for what we did get this era, messy releases and all. And wether she likes it or not, having the demos was also very exciting and some of those versions are the reason why I still have so much faith in her talent as a songwriter.

 

Musically, Iconic is not he kind of song that you love at first listen, but after a while you begin to 'metabolize' and to love itand now it is definitely one of my favorite (who knows, maybe also helped to make me love it seeing it performed in a so epic way on RH Tour)RHI love both versions of this song,  but if I initially thought it was a big mistake to insert the acoustic version on the album, then.. also in this case, after a while I changed my mind .. and now I love most the acustic version.

 

Wonderful your idea :). Hope Madonna will read. Who knows...never say never...maybe one day we will see you in the role of her artistic director :smile:

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Ive loved Iconic from the beggining, I love the lyrics. It's one of the highlights for me. The acoustic version of Rebel Heart has grown on me due to her performing it on tour, however objectively speaking the production on the demo is superior so I really prefer that, and that should have been a single.

 

I think everything Madonna does comes from her, you can tell no one was doing much behind the scenes for this album when she was working in the studio.. it was all up to her to "direct". I respect that very much, however on the other hand I think... you're the queen... get a team! one thing is not caring a lot about commercial success, which maybe she actually doesn't that much.... but you can't be looking amateurish either.

 

I think lots of fans have amazing ideas and creativity, but I'm not sure she wants to listen to those fans....... she prefers the ones who kiss her ass  ... probably ....  :oi: and I'm not about that life...

 

always love her tho.

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i think rebel heart is her best albums since ray of light , they should have stuck to the original concept with 2 cds . i loved everything about it , the image , the look , the promo , the tour made me a proud fan . i think she still makes great music and sticks heads above others

Thank you.
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I think it's very easy to go back to the era you are most fond of and you want it to be like that forever and ever. I know, I'm like that a bit.  The I'll Remember/BOE/Erotica era for me is heaven. To me 1987-1994 were the best years, the coziest. If I could do it all over again, I would. What I miss is her ability to promote the hell out of her stuff, like she used to do. There were posters in every store, her music playing. It was something magical about buying a Madonna album back then - I don't feel it as much anymore. The Rebel Heart album is very good, but not as good as her earlier stuff, and I guess it might have been better if that leak hadn't happened. I agree, she needs to change who she's got around her. She's been clinging to Oseary all these years..... get some new people in who can show her some new stuff. (But it would be nice if she worked with Bjork again)!

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Honestly I love the album and the era as a whole, much better than anything she did between 2008-2013.

 

She promoted and did live TV performances, something she did not do since 2006! I LOVED it!

 

My only "regrets" is her not releasing the Iconic "part 2", "Never Let You Go" and not making "Devil Pray", "Hold Tight" and "Heartbreak City" singles.

 

It's one of my favorite albums as well, it won't top albums like American Life or Erotica for me, but I definetely enjoy it more than other albums.

 

Plus the cover art...

 

Just perfect

 

Posted Image

 

When I saw it on iTunes on December 2014 I couldn't believe it, plus hearing how the songs were completely changed blew me away, in a positive way.

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all she needs is a little serenity in the production process, not the trend-following crap, and having hoards of people mess around with a simple song and vision.

more focus, less production. more real artistry, less gimmicks and trends.

i can see why she sticks to guy oseary. she trusts him, which is worth a lot.

his or her children's opinion (if they really played into the production) should stay OUT though.

and if i hear anyone say that diplo or DJs in general are musicians, i will slap the crap out of them.

I want to start a revolution: NO MORE DJs.

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^ um Madonna has ALWAYS WORLD WITH DJ'S. Mark Kamins and Jellybean were DJ's.

 

I think its cos some of her work with DJs now appears to be based on bits they come up with, rather than songs written beforehand by talented songwriters. That problem is blatant mostly on MDNA. Thankfully Rebel Heart has lots of quality songwriting, but there are a few songs in between that drag down the overall quality of the album (Holy Water, S.E.X, Veni Vidi Vici...). No matter how much you dress them up and put lipstick on them they're still poor compositionally and lyrically.

 

RH is her best since COADF undoubtedly, but I dont think its her best since ROL. You can't find one song in Music, AL or Confessions that's as "bad" as those aforementioned songs. I prefer having an album with constant cohesive quality than an album full of highs and lows, but that's just me. It's still an excellent step in the right direction and I just hope she's gonna continue to put effort in her music. But she has to evaluate properly which songs are clearly outtakes.

 

If she had included History, Superpop or Fighting Spirit on Confessions, I would not see the album in the same way i do.

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I don't like Rebel Heart at all really, but that's my taste. Albums like LAP, Erotica, ROL, AL & Music are incredible to me. The others aren't bad per se, but they're not as...., legendary, for me. I always thought True Blue was my weakest album as i only like the singles and no album tracks, but RH is my weakest now as i can't say there's a single song i want to listen to, ..........yet. My tastes change. When MDNA came out i was disappointed in that i felt the sound was a generic euro dance album that could have been done by anyone. But over time i've grown to like it more and more, and actually think it's a really good album. Not legendary status like the ones i mentioned, but never the less a really good album. So in time, i'll probably love RH too. i guess my opinion of RH is similar to what i thought of MDNA, i thought the tracks all sound like they could be other artists songs. And also she works with producers now after they've worked with other people, almost like she's following the trends, rather than setting them like she used to. Maybe i've been spoilt by her work with Orbit and Mirwais, as the sounds they come up with seemed ahead of their time and ahead of the game. Also her sound in the Orbit/Mirwais years was undeniably unique. You knew it was a Madonna song, as there was no other songs sounding like that at the time. Bedtime Stories isn't her best album, but it's still a good album. The singles, excluding HN, are strong and so are a handful of album tracks, but it's sandwiched between two fantastic albums (Erotica & ROL). But after a very good album, came a fantastic album, so what i'm trying to say is who knows what her next album may bring? Who knows what route she'll go down? Or who'll produce it? It could be amazing, or it may be a disaster. But the chances are no matter what it is like, some of us will hate it, some will love it and some will be indifferent. That's always going to be the case, and always has been the case, as we're all different and have different opinions. Would'nt the world be boring if we all liked and hated the same things as each other?

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