Enrico 15,788 Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 A recent thread has been investigating why people say Madonna has no talent. I have been trying to figure out the limits of her musicianship (for instance, the heavy use of backing tracks and bad musical direction in her recent tours) and I also said that she recently gets “fake” writing credits because she is not writing songs as she used to. I thought it could be nice to investigate more about this and believe, I hope I can be proven wrong. I really think Madonna is a great artist and has changed music forever. She has written immortal songs (most of all Like a prayer album), but I have the impression that in the past decade she gets writing credits for changing just a line or two. There was also a lawsuit with Ingrid Chavez for Justify my love, if I remember well (actually her demo sounds exactly the same). This is what I can tell from listening to the original writer’s demos that have surfaced (made as a demonstration for M - you can find almost all of them in the Audio section): CANDY PERFUME GIRL: almost identical NOTHING FAILS/SILLY THING: minor changes (“the tree of life”; “you washed away my fears”) HEARTBEAT: change from 3rd person to 1st person in the chorus and a few lines in the verse GIRL GONE WILD: just a few lines (“Get fired up like a smoking gun”; “It must be the Tanqueray”) + Act of Contrition SOME GIRLS: almost identical LOVE SPENT: a few lines in the verse FALLING FREE: just a few single words I am not saying she hasn’t done anything in the composition, but she hasn’t really written those songs, but gave an almost irrelevant contribution. Other songs, on the contrary, show relevant changes: SWIM: totally revised lyrics RAY OF LIGHT: second verse added SPANISH LESSON: the Pharrell demo just has “working lyrics” GANG BANG: very different from the Mika demo TURN UP THE RADIO: new lyrics I’M A SINNER: the “all saints prayer” addition HOLD TIGHT: change in the structure and the pre-chorus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWCCA 2,498 Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 Didn't she also just change a couple of words in Papa Don't Preach, and then get the writing credit? And I remember hearing several years ago that In Jump, she wrote only the simple chorus, and the rest was Joe Henry. I could be incorrect of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enrico 15,788 Posted October 11, 2018 Author Share Posted October 11, 2018 8 minutes ago, PWCCA said: Didn't she also just change a couple of words in Papa Don't Preach, and then get the writing credit? And I remember hearing several years ago that In Jump, she wrote only the simple chorus, and the rest was Joe Henry. I could be incorrect of course Well, I don't know about Jump because the original version is not available. When she changed Joe Henry's "Stop" into "Don't tell me", she made it her own and created a masterpiece! PlayPause 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazedmadonna 16,399 Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 The leaked Ingrid demo for Justify My Love is a fake, tribute cover. About 'Hold Tight' she re-wrote most of the lyrics and reworked the melody as those on the 'session singers' demos differ; the same happened to few other Diplo tracks like Living For Love. RayOfLight, BringUrLUV and Enrico 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringUrLUV 1,108 Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 We can add Revolver. She was given main writing credit & the demo w/ the demo singer's vocals that leaked sounds the same as her version word for word. Enrico 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poserdemadonna 1,630 Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 In Don't Tell Me she changed ONE word and got credits as a writer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enrico 15,788 Posted October 11, 2018 Author Share Posted October 11, 2018 41 minutes ago, BringUrLUV said: We can add Revolver. She was given main writing credit & the demo w/ the demo singer's vocals that leaked sounds the same as her version word for word. But Madonna's version features an additional verse I think: You've been hit by a smooth criminal A bad girl I got you cryin' to your mama Sayin' I can't believe it I seen ya tight Bring ya knife into a gun fight Caught up in love right Think I'm in love, I 15 minutes ago, poserdemadonna said: In Don't Tell Me she changed ONE word and got credits as a writer. At least she totally revised the melody line in this one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddyone 98 Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Enrico said: But Madonna's version features an additional verse I think: You've been hit by a smooth criminal A bad girl I got you cryin' to your mama Sayin' I can't believe it I seen ya tight Bring ya knife into a gun fight Caught up in love right Think I'm in love, I At least she totally revised the melody line in this one! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIE3HBY64dc It's always been there - 1:03 same verse...when it was announced Madonna was picking up this demo 3 different ones leaked, two with just RaVaugh and one with Lil Wayne. Around 1:50 is unused lyrics that as far as I know Madonna didn't use. BringUrLUV and Enrico 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edina Monsoon 327 Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 So is the point of this thread to discredit M as a songwriter? madgefan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enrico 15,788 Posted October 11, 2018 Author Share Posted October 11, 2018 47 minutes ago, Dita Parlo said: So is the point of this thread to discredit M as a songwriter? Not at all, but to analize her specific contribution. The fact that she recently complained with Guy Oseary about the songwriting camps ("where no one can sit still for more than 15 minutes") gives me hope that she wants to go back to a more personal way of writing songs. I find that some of the songs that she gets unique writing credits, like Sidewalk talk and especially Gambler, are really really good!! Fighter, BringUrLUV and Maddyone 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poserdemadonna 1,630 Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 Everybody and Lucky Star are also 100% Madonna BringUrLUV 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Régine Filange 2,582 Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 Well I don't what's the truth but I think she's enough smart to write some good lyrics. Looking at the songs you mentioned, most of the songs that she didn't contributed that much, are her worst. While Swim has amazing lyrics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTSP 227 Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 Ingrid chavez demo ha no music and it's a poem. The most famous line from it (at the end of the video) is not in the original "demo". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candy Perfume Boy 6,074 Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 Just because we have session singers singing alternate versions doesn’t mean m didn’t contribute to writing the song. William Orbit discussed this when mDNA was recorded, because M had limited studio time she would write and session singers did demo vocals, also in terms Of Falling Free the other writer was clear that Madonna co-wrote. how do we know that this method of working hasn’t been used on other demos?? i don’t doubt that for some songs she perhaps doesn’t add a lit, but melodies etc can earn credit Fighter 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddyone 98 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 10 hours ago, poserdemadonna said: Everybody and Lucky Star are also 100% Madonna Everybody is half Stephen Bray half Madonna. They worked out a deal in which, M was given solo writing credit for Everybody & Stephen was given solo writing credit for Ain't No Big Deal. Madonna's name alone appears on the credits for Physical Attraction when first filed in 1982 but when re-filed Reggie Lucas was the only name that appeared. BringUrLUV 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddyone 98 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 10 hours ago, Popeline said: Ingrid chavez demo ha no music and it's a poem. The most famous line from it (at the end of the video) is not in the original "demo". Yeah it was Lenny who added the music and turned the poem into the song which he then presented to Madonna, she had no idea about Ingrid until she was sued. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddyone 98 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 9 hours ago, Candy Perfume Boy said: Just because we have session singers singing alternate versions doesn’t mean m didn’t contribute to writing the song. William Orbit discussed this when mDNA was recorded, because M had limited studio time she would write and session singers did demo vocals, also in terms Of Falling Free the other writer was clear that Madonna co-wrote. how do we know that this method of working hasn’t been used on other demos?? i don’t doubt that for some songs she perhaps doesn’t add a lit, but melodies etc can earn credit If you change a word of a song you should get writing credit. I remember Cher saying she changed a few words on Believe but she is listed nowhere on the credits, it's truly a shame if that's true. I remember a quote from Stephen Bray on Madonna, that she wouldn't sing/record anything unless it had her name on it, he was talking about if that's Madonna singing on Lies In Your Eyes by Level 1 thats been passed around for years as her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semtex1 840 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 My take on this, for what it's worth is this. If i'm a detective, I investigate, interview and get the suspect charged where he goes to court. Someone else may have taken statements for me, collected the CCTV, may have even done the arrest. Someone else does fingerprints, DNA and photo. Someone else charges. Lawyers fight the case at court overseen by a judge, guided by a court clerk and a jury of 12 decide guilt. So many others involved. However, it's my case my win. I get the credit if we win, I take the blame if we lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtg1987 10,151 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 To me the smartest thing she ever wrote was probably the outro verse on the song Words - i get goosebumps when i listen to that - its such an underrated song too imo Fighter 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enrico 15,788 Posted October 12, 2018 Author Share Posted October 12, 2018 I think her best lyrics ever are Promise to try. Really honest, no one has ever been able to describe so well how you feel when someone dies... And I would say also Live to tell, which goes very deep despite never expressely saying the precise theme, and Mer girl, so original, pure poetry. NowRadiate 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tricky ricky 580 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 i can tell when madonna has wrote most of a song ...fuzzy dream ...hesitating ....lol kidding ..no really i can tell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tricky ricky 580 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Enrico said: I think her best lyrics ever are Promise to try. Really honest, no one has ever been able to describe so well how you feel when someone dies... And I would say also Live to tell, which goes very deep despite never expressely saying the precise theme, and Mer girl, so original, pure poetry. i think her best lyrics are secret garden . anel_ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dance_Freak 480 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 16 hours ago, Maddyone said: Yeah it was Lenny who added the music and turned the poem into the song which he then presented to Madonna, she had no idea about Ingrid until she was sued. Wrong: Ingrid recorded Justify My Love using some of the verses from a poem of hers on the backing track. Madonna’s version is identical to her demo. You can search stuff and press about it on Google and on YouTube. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddyone 98 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 Justify My Love was originally written and recorded by Ingrid Chavez and Lenny Kravitz: he and producer André Betts composed the music while Chavez penned the lyrics based on a poem she had written for Kravitz, and read them aloud. Kravitz added the title hook and chorus to the demo while Madonna corrected one line. Chavez was not credited for the song and later sued Kravitz in 1992: she received an out-of-court settlement, and gained a co-writing credit for her work. P.S. it's already been made known the version on youtube is not the demo...see page 1 of this thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringUrLUV 1,108 Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 On 10/12/2018 at 12:13 AM, Maddyone said: If you change a word of a song you should get writing credit. I remember Cher saying she changed a few words on Believe but she is listed nowhere on the credits, it's truly a shame if that's true. I remember a quote from Stephen Bray on Madonna, that she wouldn't sing/record anything unless it had her name on it, he was talking about if that's Madonna singing on Lies In Your Eyes by Level 1 thats been passed around for years as her. To expand on that, Cher actually wrote the whole second verse of Believe & wasn't credited. Said so in an interview years ago. Maddyone 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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