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10 hours ago, adirondak said:

If nothings done I suggest everyone who’s annoyed by this go to another Madonna forum and let this one die. It’s gone past the point of normal behavior. @Jackie

Yeah, I'm thinking about leaving too if this continues. It's like we don't have mods.

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I think people are willing to have constructive conversations - whether ir not I agree or disagree. But I'm sorry, you CANNOT when individual(s) hijack the forum. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, however imo you cross the line when you lack basic respect. And for me that's what it came to.

Thank you @Jackiefor enforcing that basic trait on this individual(s). 

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8 hours ago, Roland Barthes said:

So people making transphobic and sexist remarks on a Madonna forum does not bother you ? What bothers you is when they are called out. Well i agree with you on one thing, this forum has turned into shit with dozens of trolls (probably the same no life self hating racist guy from south america), Maga lovers, terfs and transphobics assholes and that guy who thinks women deserves to be harrassed at the gym for not covering up. 

It really, really puzzles me how these people can be Madonna fans when she's a trans supporter (Vogue anyone ? Paris Is Burnng her favourite movie from 91 ?) has trans collaborators and a woman who's been criticized for undressing and wanted to bomb the white house because Trump was president then. I TRULY try to understand what Madonna these people are fans of, certainly not the Madonna or they've just nevr paid attention. And don't get me started on fans of other female artist coming here to derail the threads, making ones, to downplay what Madonna is or has done and then play victims when they are called out for their pueril schemes.

I'm not against people saying transphobic stuff, freedom of speech, but i will surely tell them they are transphobic pieces of shit whenever they do and if that is going to ban me from the forum, so be it. I'm most of the time blocking people i disagree with including that annoying truly troll because i don't make the rules here and he's free to say what IT wants in my book as long as it's not insulting and diminishing, degrading and insulting a category of people Madonna champions. But i won't shut up when i read transphobic and rape apologist stuff. I won't regret regret being being baned for it because at least i'd know what kind of place this is.

 

I didn’t qualify what I was referring to when I stated there was a woke brigade, but thank you for bringing attention to what you see as problematic. I am not transphobic, and I certainly wasn’t referring to anything trans-related. As trans people are an unprotected minority, I most certainly think they should feel protected and safe to be who they want to be, and celebrated by Madonna and anyone else who wants to. However, they are also a very small minority who seem to have become politicized and weaponized in the cultural narrative. This is, by no fault of their own, to the detriment of many other minorities and unprotected global citizens,  and that is perhaps worthy of intelligent discussion. It doesn’t take away from their value as human beings. 
 

As for sexism, that’s definitely an intellectual debate also worthy of exploration. Whenever I have participated in any discussion around body image, aging or plastic surgery, there is a tendency to allow a vociferous minority to decide that it is misogynistic to even acknowledge that these things exist, and have an impact on how Madonna (the primary subject of this forum) is perceived. This is the case in society at large in this current climate, and I am equally irritated by this knee jerk response in other areas of life. I am not advocating for the ability to tear Madonna, or any other person, apart through gratuitous and meaningless criticism, but I also have the intelligence to be able to observe how Madonna’s public image has evolved, how people have expressed their views on her and her legacy in recent years as she has gotten older, and how Madonna herself chooses to portray herself. Madonna is a private citizen as well as a public figure. She has always been polarizing, and her public actions are an open invitation to critique and contextualization. Unfortunately if we shut down every voice that offends our personal views, we end up with a totalitarian singularity of thought that serves no one. Those are my personal beliefs, and I expect some people to have a different opinion. I also think that on a discussion forum specifically constructed for the purpose of analyzing, celebrating and contextualizing Madonna in order to have a better understanding of her work and her cultural impact, those with different opinions should do more than seek to silence those who see life differently. Instead I’d hope that we can all explain why we see things a certain way for the sake of discussion because it’s interesting to hear everyone’s thoughts. I have friends who have been fans of Madonna for almost 40 years, and when we talk about her, we do so passionately, honestly and purposefully. We love hearing how the other experienced something in a different country, at perhaps a different age, or with different cultural conditioning. I’m not offended that someone wishes Madonna hadn’t aged or changed her hair color, her musical style, her voice, or her body. I’m fascinated by what that says about the individual, and our culture at large. That’s what I advocate for on here, and that is what my post was about. 

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16 minutes ago, Alibaba said:

I didn’t qualify what I was referring to when I stated there was a woke brigade, but thank you for bringing attention to what you see as problematic. I am not transphobic, and I certainly wasn’t referring to anything trans-related. As trans people are an unprotected minority, I most certainly think they should feel protected and safe to be who they want to be, and celebrated by Madonna and anyone else who wants to. However, they are also a very small minority who seem to have become politicized and weaponized in the cultural narrative. This is, by no fault of their own, to the detriment of many other minorities and unprotected global citizens,  and that is perhaps worthy of intelligent discussion. It doesn’t take away from their value as human beings. 
 

As for sexism, that’s definitely an intellectual debate also worthy of exploration. Whenever I have participated in any discussion around body image, aging or plastic surgery, there is a tendency to allow a vociferous minority to decide that it is misogynistic to even acknowledge that these things exist, and have an impact on how Madonna (the primary subject of this forum) is perceived. This is the case in society at large in this current climate, and I am equally irritated by this knee jerk response in other areas of life. I am not advocating for the ability to tear Madonna, or any other person, apart through gratuitous and meaningless criticism, but I also have the intelligence to be able to observe how Madonna’s public image has evolved, how people have expressed their views on her and her legacy in recent years as she has gotten older, and how Madonna herself chooses to portray herself. Madonna is a private citizen as well as a public figure. She has always been polarizing, and her public actions are an open invitation to critique and contextualization. Unfortunately if we shut down every voice that offends our personal views, we end up with a totalitarian singularity of thought that serves no one. Those are my personal beliefs, and I expect some people to have a different opinion. I also think that on a discussion forum specifically constructed for the purpose of analyzing, celebrating and contextualizing Madonna in order to have a better understanding of her work and her cultural impact, those with different opinions should do more than seek to silence those who see life differently. Instead I’d hope that we can all explain why we see things a certain way for the sake of discussion because it’s interesting to hear everyone’s thoughts. I have friends who have been fans of Madonna for almost 40 years, and when we talk about her, we do so passionately, honestly and purposefully. We love hearing how the other experienced something in a different country, at perhaps a different age, or with different cultural conditioning. I’m not offended that someone wishes Madonna hadn’t aged or changed her hair color, her musical style, her voice, or her body. I’m fascinated by what that says about the individual, and our culture at large. That’s what I advocate for on here, and that is what my post was about. 

I'm gonna save you time. First trans people are being killed for what they are. Killed. Not just harrassed on the internet but killed. I see what my trans friends face DAILY on Facebook, terfs trolls joining their pages and profiles to tell them they should kill themselves. So there's no absolutely no discussion there. And IRL it's less vocal, they just get killed. Killed. Like dead. It's not like they are being told they are transphobic because they have transphobic ideas and they express them then cry victim. No they are being killed. And anyone partiipating online in these discussions, saying "i'm not transphobic but..." are active actors in these killings. 

Regarding plastic surgery, tattoos, sexuality, abortion, transition....: people's bodies, their choice !

People must be allowed to do whatever they want to do with their bodies. People discussing other people's bodies or personnal choices they make is their prerogative. They don't need your permission or mine, your opinion, mine or anyone's unless they ask. BUT since people keep thinking they must have a say about what perfect strangers do with their lives then they must deal with people telling them to eff off. If you can't deal with people telling you to eff off, telling you what your "opinions" are then don't make them publicly. I don't want to discuss with a terf or someone who thinks women dressing sexy deserve to be sexually harrased. There's absolutey no discussion there. They just need to be told the scum they are and if they can't deal with it, their problem. 

I was not always like this, i was prejudiced too. So convince i was right and then you meet people. They are no longer an idea but your friends, your family and then you see how dangerous the world is for them. How brave they are to be who they want to be in a society that judges and puts everyone in a box when everyone wants to be unique and respected, yet most of us partiipate into limiting others in their freedoms because instead of doing the work, meaning working on ourself to understand why we are prejudiced, we'd rather judge and denigrate. I won't tand silent when limited and narrow minded people try to maintain the statu quo, to control the narrative and the world because they are scared of what does not look like them or fit in the boxes they want to trap everybody. That's what bothers me, not someone extending a truly joke beyond it's past date or people being outraged because some people deny people of what they are or wear like it's their business. That's when it becomes MY business. And i won't stand by reading phobic stuff without saying how stupid it is.

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1 hour ago, Roland Barthes said:

I'm gonna save you time. First trans people are being killed for what they are. Killed. Not just harrassed on the internet but killed. I see what my trans friends face DAILY on Facebook, terfs trolls joining their pages and profiles to tell them they should kill themselves. So there's no absolutely no discussion there. And IRL it's less vocal, they just get killed. Killed. Like dead. It's not like they are being told they are transphobic because they have transphobic ideas and they express them then cry victim. No they are being killed. And anyone partiipating online in these discussions, saying "i'm not transphobic but..." are active actors in these killings. 

Regarding plastic surgery, tattoos, sexuality, abortion, transition....: people's bodies, their choice !

People must be allowed to do whatever they want to do with their bodies. People discussing other people's bodies or personnal choices they make is their prerogative. They don't need your permission or mine, your opinion, mine or anyone's unless they ask. BUT since people keep thinking they must have a say about what perfect strangers do with their lives then they must deal with people telling them to eff off. If you can't deal with people telling you to eff off, telling you what your "opinions" are then don't make them publicly. I don't want to discuss with a terf or someone who thinks women dressing sexy deserve to be sexually harrased. There's absolutey no discussion there. They just need to be told the scum they are and if they can't deal with it, their problem. 

I was not always like this, i was prejudiced too. So convince i was right and then you meet people. They are no longer an idea but your friends, your family and then you see how dangerous the world is for them. How brave they are to be who they want to be in a society that judges and puts everyone in a box when everyone wants to be unique and respected, yet most of us partiipate into limiting others in their freedoms because instead of doing the work, meaning working on ourself to understand why we are prejudiced, we'd rather judge and denigrate. I won't tand silent when limited and narrow minded people try to maintain the statu quo, to control the narrative and the world because they are scared of what does not look like them or fit in the boxes they want to trap everybody. That's what bothers me, not someone extending a truly joke beyond it's past date or people being outraged because some people deny people of what they are or wear like it's their business. That's when it becomes MY business. And i won't stand by reading phobic stuff without saying how stupid it is.

I applaud your tenacity and passion! I don’t appreciate your assumptions about my own life, your general lack of inquisitiveness, and your inability to actually read what I wrote outside of a defense. I always take the time to read your posts as you are clearly intelligent. However, your approach to communication with such intransigence makes me less inclined to want to hear your opinions. And that is all they are after all. Opinions.

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3 hours ago, Roland Barthes said:

I'm gonna save you time. First trans people are being killed for what they are. Killed. Not just harrassed on the internet but killed.r

Is there any evidence of this? Because I’ve personally not seen any. I’m sure some may exist, but I don’t think there’s a genocide going on as I’ve seen claimed. And there have been a few recent mass shootings committed by trans and nonbinary people. 

I don’t think anyone here has a problem with adults doing what they want with their own bodies. I also don’t think that’s the conservative viewpoint. The problem I’ve seen brought up with regards to trans people is children having surgeries and taking dangerous treatments before they have the brain capacity to understand the ramifications that may exist years down the road.  

Maybe if there’s further discussion to be had we can set up a thread for it so we don’t interrupt this thread which is about Madonna’s social media. 

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8 minutes ago, adirondak said:

Is there any evidence of this? Because I’ve personally not seen any. I’m sure some may exist, but I don’t think there’s a genocide going on as I’ve seen claimed. And there have been a few recent mass shootings committed by trans and nonbinary people. 

I don’t think anyone here has a problem with adults doing what they want with their own bodies. I also don’t think that’s the conservative viewpoint. The problem I’ve seen brought up with regards to trans people is children having surgeries and taking dangerous treatments before they have the brain capacity to understand the ramifications that may exist years down the road.  

Maybe if there’s further discussion to be had we can set up a thread for it so we don’t interrupt this thread which is about Madonna’s social media. 

And how many documented children have had the surgery?

Its not like everyone is rushing out to change their gender.

It should be up to the parents and their doctor. Nobody else.

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9 minutes ago, BuggedOut said:

And how many documented children have had the surgery?

Its not like everyone is rushing out to change their gender.

It should be up to the parents and their doctor. Nobody else.

Well then why shouldn’t children getting tattoos be up to them and their tattoo artist, or voting be up to children and their parents? Or deciding to have sex with adults be between children and their parents? Or hardcore drugs? Some things we have to agree as a society are detrimental. 

I don’t know how many children have had the surgery. But I do know there are trans people who had it as children who have regretted it and have tried as best they can to detransition, which shows that children aren’t necessarily ready to make such a decision, even with a doctor (who lets not forget makes money off of this and therefore may be looking after their own interests) and parents input. 

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On 5/3/2023 at 4:32 PM, Roland Barthes said:

I'm gonna save you time. First trans people are being killed for what they are. Killed. Not just harrassed on the internet but killed. I see what my trans friends face DAILY on Facebook, terfs trolls joining their pages and profiles to tell them they should kill themselves. So there's no absolutely no discussion there. And IRL it's less vocal, they just get killed. Killed. Like dead. It's not like they are being told they are transphobic because they have transphobic ideas and they express them then cry victim. No they are being killed. And anyone partiipating online in these discussions, saying "i'm not transphobic but..." are active actors in these killings. 

Regarding plastic surgery, tattoos, sexuality, abortion, transition....: people's bodies, their choice !

People must be allowed to do whatever they want to do with their bodies. People discussing other people's bodies or personnal choices they make is their prerogative. They don't need your permission or mine, your opinion, mine or anyone's unless they ask. BUT since people keep thinking they must have a say about what perfect strangers do with their lives then they must deal with people telling them to eff off. If you can't deal with people telling you to eff off, telling you what your "opinions" are then don't make them publicly. I don't want to discuss with a terf or someone who thinks women dressing sexy deserve to be sexually harrased. There's absolutey no discussion there. They just need to be told the scum they are and if they can't deal with it, their problem. 

I was not always like this, i was prejudiced too. So convince i was right and then you meet people. They are no longer an idea but your friends, your family and then you see how dangerous the world is for them. How brave they are to be who they want to be in a society that judges and puts everyone in a box when everyone wants to be unique and respected, yet most of us partiipate into limiting others in their freedoms because instead of doing the work, meaning working on ourself to understand why we are prejudiced, we'd rather judge and denigrate. I won't tand silent when limited and narrow minded people try to maintain the statu quo, to control the narrative and the world because they are scared of what does not look like them or fit in the boxes they want to trap everybody. That's what bothers me, not someone extending a truly joke beyond it's past date or people being outraged because some people deny people of what they are or wear like it's their business. That's when it becomes MY business. And i won't stand by reading phobic stuff without saying how stupid it is.

Someone is has their left wing trans ideology propaganda echo chamber  tin foil hat just a little too tight.

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21 hours ago, adirondak said:

Well then why shouldn’t children getting tattoos be up to them....

Or deciding to have sex with adults be between children and their parents? Or hardcore drugs? Some things we have to agree as a society are detrimental. 

I don’t know how many children have had the surgery. But I do know there are trans people who had it as children who have regretted it and have tried as best they can to detransition, which shows that children aren’t necessarily ready to make such a decision...

I think we should get back to discussing Madonna and not this issue - BUT - I would implore you to educate yourself. You're asking a lot of questions that are answerable or don't stand up to simple scrutiny if examined further.

For instance: gender surgery for children is extremely rare. What is much more common are hormone blockers so that a child who is struggling with gender dysphoria can (as you suggest) wait until they are "of legal age" to make transition decisions. That gender-affirming care is being outlawed state-by-state in the US right now. The conservative party in this country is using trans people as a boogeyman and fanning the "culture war" flames. They are using trans rights as a wedge issue leading up to the 2024 elections. They did the same thing with gay marriage in 2004 with Bush's reelection.

Here's some science-backed, fact-based literature on hormone blockers that includes a study over many years with data from 27,000+ trans people: https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/01/mental-health-hormone-treatment-transgender-people.html

And if you don't want to read the whole thing, here is the major point:

"The new study found that transgender people who began hormone treatment in adolescence had fewer thoughts of suicide, were less likely to experience major mental health disorders and had fewer problems with substance abuse than those who started hormones in adulthood. The study also documented better mental health among those who received hormones at any age than those who desired but never received the treatment...."

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