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No hating but...what happened to Madonna after 2007?


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Guest Nobody Knows Me
3 minutes ago, Glindathegood said:

Has she really changed? Or were we not as aware of her earlier mistakes because there wasn’t social media during that time. 

I don’t think she’s worryingly different, but she just seems to have a different energy about her in interviews now as she did ten years ago to me. It’s not really a criticism or anything, she just seems different now. 

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11 minutes ago, Nobody Knows Me said:

I don’t think she’s worryingly different, but she just seems to have a different energy about her in interviews now as she did ten years ago to me. It’s not really a criticism or anything, she just seems different now. 

I think ten years ago she still seemed positive, witty and to an extent charming. Lately she seems overly serious in her demeanour and borderline offensive in how she speaks to people. 
 

Parkinson in 05 she came across really warm, compare that to Norton in 2019.

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Guest Nobody Knows Me
2 minutes ago, scion said:

I think ten years ago she still seemed positive, witty and to an extent charming. Lately she seems overly serious in her demeanour and borderline offensive in how she speaks to people. 
 

Parkinson in 05 she came across really warm, compare that to Norton in 2019.

I was just thinking that. I rewatch Parkinson ‘05 all the time. It is a shame because here in the UK people really loved her back then, but the press she got here last year was so depressing. I was watching Graham Norton live at the time and was just...disappointed?

I’m sorry, I don’t mean to sound cliche or one of those fans who are always disappointed by her, and I’m trying so hard to not make this a criticism, but I can’t think of another way to describe how I felt watching it. It just seemed off. 

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It seems that she just isn't playing by the rules that many of her fans expect her to play by. I personally don't think there is anything wrong with her at all. In fact, I think she just continues to evolve based upon the values she believes in, and those who take issue with her haven't evolved in the same direction. She simply doesn't seem to care what those people think about her as she has understood that there is a bigger picture beyond the validation of record sales, popularity contests and public persuasion. As I explored in my previous assessment of modern Madonna, she's fully aware that no matter what she does, everyone will project their personal beliefs and feelings upon her. She's been a metaphorical punching bag for decades; I doubt it bothers her at all. 

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1 hour ago, Nobody Knows Me said:

I was just thinking that. I rewatch Parkinson ‘05 all the time. It is a shame because here in the UK people really loved her back then, but the press she got here last year was so depressing. I was watching Graham Norton live at the time and was just...disappointed?

I’m sorry, I don’t mean to sound cliche or one of those fans who are always disappointed by her, and I’m trying so hard to not make this a criticism, but I can’t think of another way to describe how I felt watching it. It just seemed off. 

No I totally agree you're right and feel the same. She was a respected legend during the COADF era here in the UK... nowadays I don't think there is actually much respect for her. 

 

27 minutes ago, Enrico said:

All the last interviews have been boring, same questions, she is very cold and unfriendly. The only good one was when she answered questions from her bathroom. Things definitely got worse since Liz Rosemberg left in 2015.

It's just... for me she isn't likeable. She was likeable, but the permanently frosty bitchy attitude has killed that for me, and it seems because it's gotten worse and isn't funny anymore, the effect has rubbed off on the general public too. 

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I feel that she's more bitter and her music from MDNA to RH reflects it a lot and it ends up leaving people who might be interested, not approaching, or listening to its material. No one is good all the time, but spread bitterness is not a good thing when you deal with people. Even her Instagram profile is heavier and spread a bad vibe. 

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Yes she’s changed.

Firstly she had those ass injections. Then she did the disastrous Eurovision performance which was vocally her worst ever. Then there that crazy post about the New York Times. Plus all the MX promo which she didn’t seem her usual self to me.

Then she’s been shortening shows and cancelling shows last minute. Yes I know she had her reasons but there were various cancellations and postponements before the injuries. Not only that but she was dancing around nye posting it on insta when her fans believed she was healing. She also went to a party the night she was supposed to be performing in Lisbon. With many cancellations she made little or no acknowledge of it, no apologies and the refunds were often handled terribly by her team or live nation/ticketmaster. All of the above a PR disaster.
 

Ultimately I think she made a poor choice continuing the tour into Europe, it was a let down for a lot of people that travelled far and wide to see her. I’m not saying it’s all her fault but it’s a far cry from the Madonna of yesteryear who had an almost perfect track record with this stuff. She could have postponed but perhaps it wasn’t the best financial decision for her, I can’t think of any other reason why a person with injuries would put themselves through that.

Then since then we’ve had the quarantine diaries, fried fish, the bath video and now this recent thing. I don’t know what it is but somethings up with her for sure.

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TBH I think this is the Madonna we would have gotten had she not moved to Britain and got married to Guy Ritchie.  I think she really tried to fit into that lifestyle but in the end it didn't work out.  Her behavior post-divorce is pretty much in line with her behavior in the early 90s.  It's messy, it's offensive, it's in your face, and she gets on people's nerves big time.  A lot of the fan base weren't around for the 80s or 90s Madonna. They came on board either around the time of Ray of Light or Music or Confessions on a Dace Floor. Not all of em, but a lot.  All this seems foreign to them but for the rest of us it's not shocking nor is it new.  Did I really think Madonna would be acting out this way in her 60s?  No. But I was more shocked in her turnaround in the late 90s, Guy Ritchie/lady of the manor reinvention.  That I wasn't expecting.  That being said, what is going on now is beyond pre-2020, post divorce.  Now it's verging on bizarre.  I hope she doesn't end up completely self-destructing like many of her peers.  Madonna is not superhuman.  She's probably in a lot of physical pain right now and lord knows what pills they probably have her on.  I hate even bringing it up - like who knows, but this is the type of stuff people can get addicted to easily and it destroyed many of the other artists of her era.  I hate even thinking it and it's not like she hasn't been doing a lot of questionable things before she injured herself, but I do wonder what state of mind she's in these days while she recovers no doubt on medication.  I know this can come across as controversial, but it is an epidemic and people end up not being able to live without it.  All it takes is one injury.  Madonna has always been hypocritical (fans expect it) but her recent statements are out of character even for her.  Again, it's bizarre.

Perhaps I'm being melodramatic, but this is where my mind is at.  I know everyone has an opinion about her these days.

What makes this all the more messy is that Liz Rosenberg is no longer in the picture.  She could clean up things and probably get through to her in two seconds.

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3 hours ago, Blue Jean said:

Yes she’s changed.

Firstly she had those ass injections. Then she did the disastrous Eurovision performance which was vocally her worst ever. Then there that crazy post about the New York Times. Plus all the MX promo which she didn’t seem her usual self to me.

Then she’s been shortening shows and cancelling shows last minute. Yes I know she had her reasons but there were various cancellations and postponements before the injuries. Not only that but she was dancing around nye posting it on insta when her fans believed she was healing. She also went to a party the night she was supposed to be performing in Lisbon. With many cancellations she made little or no acknowledge of it, no apologies and the refunds were often handled terribly by her team or live nation/ticketmaster. All of the above a PR disaster.
 

Ultimately I think she made a poor choice continuing the tour into Europe, it was a let down for a lot of people that travelled far and wide to see her. I’m not saying it’s all her fault but it’s a far cry from the Madonna of yesteryear who had an almost perfect track record with this stuff. She could have postponed but perhaps it wasn’t the best financial decision for her, I can’t think of any other reason why a person with injuries would put themselves through that.

Then since then we’ve had the quarantine diaries, fried fish, the bath video and now this recent thing. I don’t know what it is but somethings up with her for sure.

Perhaps she finished the tour because she wasn’t sure she would ever be able to tour again given the seriousness of her injuries?
 

Personally, I can’t wait to see the tour filmed the way she wants the show to be seen, with whatever edits and effects she thinks best represent her vision. She was mesmerizing as always onstage, and she seemed so happy each and every night to perform the songs she wanted to perform with people she clearly adored being around. The heroism of performing so tenaciously through painful injury and still being charming, funny and joyful is perhaps a more useful aspect of the last year to focus on. It’s ironic that it might actually be her contentment that some people don’t like about her now.
 

Sure, we might not like her unusually shaped fat ass, and it’s true that Eurovision was a dud, but it’s still fascinating to contemplate what made her make the decision to change her body so drastically, and I certainly would love to know what truly happened in Tel Aviv that night. 
 

It took a long time for me to adjust to Madonna aging more rapidly, and more importantly how she decided to approach that inconvenient inevitability...But once I accepted it, I was reminded of her extraordinary essence that flows through everything she has ever made or done. Like all relationships - even one-sided - there have been times when I have dismissed her, or criticized her unfairly, but in the grand scheme of things I have such gratitude for all of her incarnations and eras. I’m totally enthralled that 36 years after first setting eyes on her, she is still amazingly curious and driven. She will forever remain an inspiration to me, and I will continue to gleefully anticipate whatever is next. 

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20 minutes ago, drivebitch said:

TBH I think this is the Madonna we would have gotten had she not moved to Britain and got married to Guy Ritchie.  I think she really tried to fit into that lifestyle but in the end it didn't work out.  Her behavior post-divorce is pretty much in line with her behavior in the early 90s.  It's messy, it's offensive, it's in your face, and she gets on people's nerves big time.  A lot of the fan base weren't around for the 80s or 90s Madonna. They came on board either around the time of Ray of Light or Music or Confessions on a Dace Floor. Not all of em, but a lot.  All this seems foreign to them but for the rest of us it's not shocking nor is it new.  Did I really think Madonna would be acting out this way in her 60s?  No. But I was more shocked in her turnaround in the late 90s, Guy Ritchie/lady of the manor reinvention.  That I wasn't expecting.  That being said, what is going on now is beyond pre-2020, post divorce.  Now it's verging on bizarre.  I hope she doesn't end up completely self-destructing like many of her peers.  Madonna is not superhuman.  She's probably in a lot of physical pain right now and lord knows what pills they probably have her on.  I hate even bringing it up - like who knows, but this is the type of stuff people can get addicted to easily and it destroyed many of the other artists of her era.  I hate even thinking it and it's not like she hasn't been doing a lot of questionable things before she injured herself, but I do wonder what state of mind she's in these days while she recovers no doubt on medication.  I know this can come across as controversial, but it is an epidemic and people end up not being able to live without it.  All it takes is one injury.  Madonna has always been hypocritical (fans expect it) but her recent statements are out of character even for her.  Again, it's bizarre.

Perhaps I'm being melodramatic, but this is where my mind is at.  I know everyone has an opinion about her these days.

What makes this all the more messy is that Liz Rosenberg is no longer in the picture.  She could clean up things and probably get through to her in two seconds.

What I don’t understand is why would you want Liz Rosenberg to fix her public image when what she is showing us is the real deal? I’m not sure I understand why anyone would want her to be marketed as someone more palatable to the masses if that’s not what she wants to be.
 

Madonna has always been this way. It’s just that people used to accept it from her because she was a younger woman. When you’re twenty you can dress like a tramp and you’ll look sexy. When you’re sixty and you dress like a tramp, you look like a tramp. That’s just the way we have been conditioned culturally to perceive things. These are unconscious biases. 

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Just now, Alibaba said:

What I don’t understand is why would you want Liz Rosenberg to fix her public image when what she is showing us is the real deal? I’m not sure I understand why anyone would want her to be marketed as someone more palatable to the masses if that’s not what she wants to be.
 

Madonna has always been this way. It’s just that people accepted it from her because she was a younger woman. When you’re twenty you can dress like a tramp and you’ll look sexy. When you’re sixty and you dress like a tramp, you look like a tramp. That’s just the way we have been conditioned culturally to perceive things. These are unconscious biases. 

Like I said, perhaps Liz would have been the one to check in with her and get through to her if there was an issue.  It's been reported again and again that her circle has become smaller and smaller and she's pretty isolated.  It's all Yes men surrounding her.  If there is a problem going on they'll probably never say anything to remain on the payroll.

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1 minute ago, drivebitch said:

Like I said, perhaps Liz would have been the one to check in with her and get through to her if there was an issue.  It's been reported again and again that her circle has become smaller and smaller and she's pretty isolated.  It's all Yes men surrounding her.  If there is a problem going on they'll probably never say anything to remain on the payroll.

Or...maybe there’s no problem, and she likes the people around her to treat her the way they do because she’s Madonna. Perhaps they are very honest with her. Perhaps they just don’t think honesty needs to be telling her that some of her fans don’t like her ass, or think that she’s not being likable enough to be praised by the stupid corporate media that she has no use for anymore. 
 

So many possibilities! Always look on the bright side! 

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10 hours ago, Alibaba said:

It seems that she just isn't playing by the rules that many of her fans expect her to play by. I personally don't think there is anything wrong with her at all. In fact, I think she just continues to evolve based upon the values she believes in, and those who take issue with her haven't evolved in the same direction. She simply doesn't seem to care what those people think about her as she has understood that there is a bigger picture beyond the validation of record sales, popularity contests and public persuasion. As I explored in my previous assessment of modern Madonna, she's fully aware that no matter what she does, everyone will project their personal beliefs and feelings upon her. She's been a metaphorical punching bag for decades; I doubt it bothers her at all. 

Finally. Somebody gets it.

giphy.gif

 

I've always known that the people who were truly going to have the hardest time with how Madonna ages (personally and professionally) are her own fans. Especially once the commercial success was done. I knew it was going to be this way. It's always this way.

Unless fans can evolve in their own expectations and perceptions during this stage of her career, they're just going to constantly have a hard time. Doesn't mean you have to like everything...but the expectations (and more so the entitlements) are going to frustrate you if you're in denial of who she is now....not what you want or expect her to be.

And let's face it, some folks will never be happy unless they get Confessions 2.0 or ROL 2.0, and she becomes the Madonna they fell in love with and think she should always be...and guess what, it's NEVER happening.

 

 

2 hours ago, Alibaba said:

Madonna has always been this way. It’s just that people used to accept it from her because she was a younger woman. When you’re twenty you can dress like a tramp and you’ll look sexy. When you’re sixty and you dress like a tramp, you look like a tramp. That’s just the way we have been conditioned culturally to perceive things. These are unconscious biases. 

BINGO.

The Madonna of post 07 'till now is basically the 'mature' iteration of Madonna in 89-95 - offensive, in your face, bold, not PC, sometimes a mess, etc....and that's compounded by the context of the times we're in where nothing can be seen as 'problematic'. That's quite different than those who came to the fold post-ROL/Kabbalah/Ritchie years. And it was actually those years that made us ask this very topic question. But we still embraced it and went along for the ride. But take all this, and combine it now with age (and no massive commercial success to buffer it), it absolutely hits the vulnerabilities, and biases, of a lot of fans.

 

 

2 hours ago, Alibaba said:

It took a long time for me to adjust to Madonna aging more rapidly, and more importantly how she decided to approach that inconvenient inevitability...But once I accepted it, I was reminded of her extraordinary essence that flows through everything she has ever made or done. Like all relationships - even one-sided - there have been times when I have dismissed her, or criticized her unfairly, but in the grand scheme of things I have such gratitude for all of her incarnations and eras. I’m totally enthralled that 36 years after first setting eyes on her, she is still amazingly curious and driven. She will forever remain an inspiration to me, and I will continue to gleefully anticipate whatever is next. 

THIS. THIS. THIS.

Perfectly stated.

My outlook as well. No matter the fuck-ups, the imperfections, etc... she's still with us. Still inspired. Still working. Still doing things in ways that NO other popular artist, let alone female, is doing at this age, at this stage in a pop career. NO ONE.

And truth be told...it won't last forever. Every day I'm reminded Michael is gone, Prince is gone, Bowie is gone, Whitney is gone... and more. So many of the TRUE icons are gone. And the current landscape of popular music is utterly depressing.

I'm enjoying and appreciating it ALL while it lasts...

 

 

...because it won't.

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I think everyone in every field needs advice. Liz seemed to know how to deal with press and public.

I don't like to see Madonna sabotaging herself. Surrounded by yes people who are not able to tell her that going live at midnight with people waiting for four hours is not a provocation, it's not war to patriarchy, it is just a bad behaviour.

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25 minutes ago, Enrico said:

I think everyone in every field needs advice. Liz seemed to know how to deal with press and public.

I don't like to see Madonna sabotaging herself. Surrounded by yes people who are not able to tell her that going live at midnight with people waiting for four hours is not a provocation, it's not war to patriarchy, it is just a bad behaviour.

I agree, I don't think it's that she's not behaving how someone her age is expected to, it's more a feeling of she thinks she can just behave badly because she's Madonna.

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2 hours ago, Alibaba said:

Perhaps she finished the tour because she wasn’t sure she would ever be able to tour again given the seriousness of her injuries?
 

Personally, I can’t wait to see the tour filmed the way she wants the show to be seen, with whatever edits and effects she thinks best represent her vision. She was mesmerizing as always onstage, and she seemed so happy each and every night to perform the songs she wanted to perform with people she clearly adored being around. The heroism of performing so tenaciously through painful injury and still being charming, funny and joyful is perhaps a more useful aspect of the last year to focus on. It’s ironic that it might actually be her contentment that some people don’t like about her now.
 

Sure, we might not like her unusually shaped fat ass, and it’s true that Eurovision was a dud, but it’s still fascinating to contemplate what made her make the decision to change her body so drastically, and I certainly would love to know what truly happened in Tel Aviv that night. 
 

It took a long time for me to adjust to Madonna aging more rapidly, and more importantly how she decided to approach that inconvenient inevitability...But once I accepted it, I was reminded of her extraordinary essence that flows through everything she has ever made or done. Like all relationships - even one-sided - there have been times when I have dismissed her, or criticized her unfairly, but in the grand scheme of things I have such gratitude for all of her incarnations and eras. I’m totally enthralled that 36 years after first setting eyes on her, she is still amazingly curious and driven. She will forever remain an inspiration to me, and I will continue to gleefully anticipate whatever is next. 

The leaked audio of the rehearsal from Tel Aviv the day before suggests there were no technical problems... she sounded just as bad the day before. She simply wasn't in good voice. Poor, droning arrangement probably didn't help either.

 

 

edit - why does my post need moderator approval?

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You know it’s entirely possible to age naturally and let your grey hair grow out and have middle aged spread and still be beautiful and still stick a middle finger up to the patriarchy or what’s expected of you. 
Exactly the same can be said of choices Madonna has made. She’s not answerable to anyone and has the agency to change her mind and subvert expectations. I absolutely respect that. I don’t have to like it. That’s on me. 
 

The disconnect for me comes with her lifelong stance of embracing all things to do with womanhood, but that stops at the beauty of the ageing process. It’s almost like she refuses to acknowledge it in some ways. I think a lot of it comes from not having her mother around to use as a template. She’s never seemed majorly connected with Joan. 
 

The Madame X cover where she looked like her mother seemed to be a breakthrough moment for me, like a connect. I thought she might begin to embrace the beauty of ageing more. I think it was a fleeting moment but maybe her kids growing up, her injury and her popularity decline will make her feel less pressure.....and maybe she feels no pressure at all and does exactly what she wants. I’m not sure we’ll ever know despite what she says. 

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I get that people want her to be authentic.
 

But I think what we’re seeing here is not even about her public image. Something is not right. There’s a lot of things fans are ignoring. There’s talk. It’s been in the blinds. Her long time associate dating back pre fame who is friends with Debi and was part of that whole crowd has made remarks on Twitter that hint at her not being ok.

 

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I think even the most ardent defenders of Todays M would, if given the option,take a Madonna that made different choices from the Hard Candy period onwards, back tomorrow if given the chance. 


but we are where we are. 
it’s been a difficult decade as fans but I’m still grateful for whatever she gives us and I’m glad that she still wants to give to us, but only if it’s not damaging her in any way.

I just don’t want the Highs and Lows of fame to consume her like it did all my other 80’s icons.

Michael, Whitney, George and Prince better be looking down on our girl. 
 

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The world is not the same as the 90's, we are not the same and have the same attitudes that we had when we were younger. We evolve and learn from our mistakes, we evolve and tend to be kinder and more understandable to others. If Madonna returned to be what she was when was single in the 90's, I'm sorry, but her reinventions taught her nothing. We usually tend to hold on to our best features, like her confidence and power to face anything that the world threw at her, not the arrogance. When she doesn't apologise for the negative behaviour, she's not stronger, but weak and immature. 

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