Thoughts on this ONE PART of the SEX book

[momosfantasy 947]

On 7/14/2020 at 3:45 PM, Ayham said:

Tbh that book is a mess... what the point of displaying such stories??? I even remember one pic of her almost naked on top of a dog!!! ? it’s scary... & if this book was released these days I would imagine some really crazy buzz... 

There's a lot of humor and tongue-in-cheek pictures and passages in the book, but far too many people refuse to acknowledge that sex (and Sex) can be funny and silly and playful.  There is absolutely nothing in the "dog picture" that suggests it's meant to be taken seriously.  Her point with the book was to demystify sex and sexuality, to make all the issues and hang-ups around the whole concept of sexuality less of a taboo and more something that should be able to be discussed and celebrated as opposed to treating it as some shameful thing that needs to be hidden away.  These are concepts that have always been a (problematic) part of sex, down to the very language employed--talking "dirty", getting "nasty", etc.  As M has often noted throughout the years, we have no problems with violence; there's no shortage of movies or TV shows where people meet horrible, bloody deaths or assaults.  You can show any number of blood and guts on TV every night of the week, but breasts or a naked butt, or (shock! horror!) genitalia would never, ever be shown.  Obviously, some cultures are a little less excitable about these things, but by and large sexuality is something thats considered shameful and secret, while violence is largely acceptable.  Sex (the book) is a brilliant, forward thinking work with some stunning photos, some genuinely erotic and thought provoking writing, with some humor thown in.  And of course it's not perfect, there's some clunky writing, a few photos that might not be the greatest, but overall, I think it's a highlight of her career, and it looks like mainstream culture is finally, 25+ years later, recognizing that too.  And as is always fitting towards a piece of art that offends you, if you don't like it or think it's a "mess", there's a very simple solution: don't look at it or read it.  Problem solved.

[OhBabyReadyOrNot 659]

To each their own.

 

[Guest DeeperDeeper]

On 10/25/2020 at 10:39 PM, RUADJAI said:

So now looking back, you feel all your encounters with older men were this? They were ALL predators? 

 No offense if this is your personal experience. But I had many a sex with older men when I was young and I don’t see it like this. (Except for one guy)

I had older lovers when I was young in the 90s and 00s and had a similar experience. 

But times have changed and I do have concern that a lot of young queer men are chasing daddies not because they find them hot, it's more they're yearning for a male mentor which they never had growing up and also a lot of younger people don't have strong social skills  and lack meaningful friendships with their peers - basically due to social media and technology. 

 

 

 

[Guest DeeperDeeper]

On 7/16/2020 at 2:40 AM, EgoRod said:

These are all fallacies and derailing of an argument with any valid points.

I am not agreeing with so many of Madonna choices and opinions. I don't agree either with the demonization of women that are outspoken about sex. You'll think is a tactic used only by straight man, but in fact is huge in the gay world.

When men are 'natural' to be familiar with sex .Their sexual behaviour is excused all the times, women are not.

This book was an statement when it came out because a Pop artist who was used and criticized by the media, use it to speak out not just about her freedom to express herself but for women, queer, people with kinks and other underdogs.

It was a big fuck you to an establishment and a mentality that look at this as deviant , dirty and unmentionable.

I love the sex book, when it came out and still today. Not because I'm interested on any sexual fantasies that I can copy from it. Because of the message.

You only see wrong in what you want to see wrong. But you are able to see more when you have an open mind.

Dita talks about pain and  rape as experiences and people she talks to (Dominatrix etc..)

She talks about learning to masturbate. She  doesnt shows any animal sex. A dog in a picture doesn't mean anything sexual at least you want to see that. then you need to question yourself.

Everything in this life can be about sex. The issue is when you only see sex.

An open minded and being less judgemental about others will make you care less about it and concentrate in your inner self.

 

SEX is a book about a womans sexual journey, sexuality and sexual fantasises. A lot of the stories in sex are no different to conversations which women have with each other every day - that's what most people don't get. 

 

[RUADJAI 14,939]

3 hours ago, Ashley said:

I had older lovers when I was young in the 90s and 00s and had a similar experience. 

But times have changed and I do have concern that a lot of young queer men are chasing daddies not because they find them hot, it's more they're yearning for a male mentor which they never had growing up and also a lot of younger people don't have strong social skills  and lack meaningful friendships with their peers - basically due to social media and technology. 

But who's to say that there is anything wrong with that? If one has sex with a mentor, it is not automatically manipulation or one taking advantage of the other. it could be... but it's not automatically that. 

[Semtex1 845]

49 minutes ago, RUADJAI said:

But who's to say that there is anything wrong with that? If one has sex with a mentor, it is not automatically manipulation or one taking advantage of the other. it could be... but it's not automatically that. 

I agree with both comments and there was no way I was being manipulated when I was 14/15  but social media has made it easier for the young to be exploited, no matter how in control the person thinks they are. 

[Guest DeeperDeeper]

6 hours ago, RUADJAI said:

But who's to say that there is anything wrong with that? If one has sex with a mentor, it is not automatically manipulation or one taking advantage of the other. it could be... but it's not automatically that. 

It's the fixation a lot of younger guys have with older men which is the problem. 

[deathproof 10,587]

3 hours ago, Ashley said:

It's the fixation a lot of younger guys have with older men which is the problem. 

Uh..., how? 

[artlover 3,957]

Let me tell you guys a story. I'm a Brazilian and that's gonna be a part of the story too.

There's a Brazilian former model turned actress turned children's TV show hostess turned million-copies-sold children's music singer called Xuxa (who's in my avatar btw, you can pronounce her name as Shoosha). By the late 70s she had become a fairly famous model by doing our most popular magazines' covers of back then. When the 80s first arrived she started dating who's arguably our most famous person alive, former soccer player Pelé (she was 17/18 and he was in his 40s or something). She made it to the cover of our Playboy and its contemporaries and such. But, mind you, she DIDN'T work for children back then.

They turned out to be some kind of an it couple. After doing some comedy movies, she was invited (allegedly by Pelé strongly reccomending her) to do a movie called Amor Estranho Amor (Love, Strange Love), which was directed by one Walter Hugo Khouri (an awarded and celebrated filmmaker and director) who made especially dramas, full of nudity dramas, of decadent societies and their hypocrisy. Somehow a blend between Emmanuelle and Bergman movies. In the movie she played the role of a minor who was sold to a brothel to be given as a gift to a politician. In the meantime, a 12-year old come to the house to spend two days with his mother, the house's most expensive hooker. He came just in time to be "deflowered" (I hate this term but there's room for it in the movie) by Xuxa's character (there's not consummation, though) and later by his own mother. I swear to god it was not a porn nor even a bad taste-history. It's much of an Oedipian drama indeed. 

Years later and being a low-budget children's TV show hostess, Xuxa goes to Globo, our biggest, most powerful and famous TV channels, earning millions a month and breaking records. She'd end up selling around 30 million records in a country that doesn't sell as much as the USA, for example. She was plain HUUUUUUUGE. Kind of our own Michael Jackson meets Madonna meets Marilyn meets Tinkerbell. Her peak was between 1986 and 2000. 

Mind you: we, in the 80s, had just regained our fragile democracy after 20+ years of dictatorship (which included torture, censorship and lots of deaths of innocents, including toddlers), so much of what she did was in the mainstream. The soap operas showed boobs with no restriction at 3 p.m., people used to bathe in small bikinis and trunks, our TV was unstoppable. And it somehow seemed not to warn nor bother many parents as it should have lol. She was and continue to be dragged by both critics, academics and even media vehicles for her past. Even after contributing positively for child's protection laws and increasing polio vaccination to 93% in a pre-internet era. She's also a vegan advocate. 

We've also been suffering from a neo-fascist wave by our own Latin Trump, Bolsonaro, whom Madonna has already fought against online. He's a horrible, horrible person. As a result of those years of unrestricted liberty, and ironically enough, there are people in the media who support him, carbon copies of worsened Geraldo Riveras of Brazil, who make pro-gun speeches, anti-communism speeches and most recently anti-Xuxa campaigns, after she released her memories and a children's book of a little angel called Maya who decides to come to Earth to be loved by a two-mom family. Adding to all the controversy she's been creating for nearly 40 years.

My whole point is, I don't think you should judge a person's morals by fiction neither by what they might have done in their past. They might regret it or not, but I think we've been made to believe and buy into white men's policies and morals... and it ends up killing our own people... They already know who's the "enemy": the minorities.

 

[momosfantasy 947]

On 7/17/2020 at 4:46 AM, drivebitch said:

I mean, I appreciate that era more than you'll ever believe, but passages that start out with Sex with the young can be fun... he was just a baby... and then the story about her "gash" and masturbating for the first time at 14... it reads like pedophilia, something they would get off to. It didn't help that she did that photo shoot for Vanity Fair with the pigtails looking like a little girl either. I think this was around the same time she was defending Roman Polanski to boot. It all just wasn't a good look. The era was a hoot though. Erotica is my favorite album.

Cancel culture is ridiculous. 

I agree with a lot of this, and sure, she totally did some of it for the shock value, but I refuse to agree that she was in any way seriously promoting pedophilia, and I refuse to allow anyone to condemn her for it if they also aren't going to denounce Nabokov ("Lolita") or the countless other literary examples of older/younger sexuality.  People can read whatever they want to in Sex, and as someone else pointed out, it says more about that reader than it does about Madonna.  Erotica/Sex are and always will be my favorites of hers, and good on her for creating something that still has relevance and still creates dialogue 25+ years later.  And yes, fuck cancel culture.

[momosfantasy 947]

On 10/24/2020 at 3:33 PM, Alibaba said:

This is a cultural issue, and one that has evolved enormously since 1992. In all frankness, it wasn't as taboo then to refer to sexuality with a minor. The entire Lolita fantasy had become a part of mainstream intellectual culture via the novel (1955), and more broadly via the film (1962). Stories of Madonna cruising for teenagers in the back of a limo around Alphabet City and the Lower East Side were a part of the early Madonna myth, and nobody thought twice about it. It just fit in with the rest of the smut people associated with her. She was a very young woman, and she had a taste for latin boys...NY in the late 70s and early 80s was a place outside of the moral majority's jurisdiction. 

I don't think this makes Madonna a pedophile as pedophiles generally are only able to be stimulated sexually by the idea of sex with CHILDREN, but, if true, it was morally bankrupt behavior, and was probably neurotic in some way. Frankly the infantilization of sexuality that is inherent to American culture via our mainstream media outlets that dictate the cultural narrative has gotten so subversive in so many ways that there cannot even be a dialog about age of consent, and this doesn't reflect the reality of life. Kids have sex. It is an issue that generally gets swept under the rug because most adults are not comfortable exploring the truth of child sexuality. It is avoided entirely, and then considered some sort of awkward rite of passage that can often be traumatizing and then dealt with privately in therapy for those with the means to pay for it. Again, a bourgeois cultural perspective on sexuality is going to be very different from a working class perspective, and there is also the complication of religious bias.

The Open Your Heart video is a perfect example of this reinterpretation of morality that borders on some form of morally puritanical fanaticism. I have watched this video with people in recent years, and they all have the same reaction of being offended and discomforted by the association of a strip club with a little boy, and therefore Madonna's kiss is viewed as repulsive and predatory. What is interesting is that the concept of the video has never been overtly explained to the best of my knowledge, but there is a strong argument for the idea that Madonna is in fact the boy's mother, and he is coming to meet her at the end of her shift. It is therefore by cultural projection and conditioning that people see sexuality in her affection, and not maternal love. As quoted earlier in this thread, Madonna stated herself that people's reactions to imagery reveal more about themselves than about the art itself. 

 Personally, I would not be interested at any age in having sex with minors. However, when I was a teenager I did have sex with adults, some of whom were a good decade and a half older than me. I regret this entirely, and I have questioned the matter of accountability in these physical transactions many times throughout my adult life. I have often wondered what type of people these men were as they were clearly attracted to my youth, and that youth was undoubtedly boyish in many ways. I was also relentlessly seductive, and so I take responsibility for my overt invitations, but I will never be able to understand the sort of emotional impotence that I believe stunted these predators into feeling incapable of relating to their peers, and therefore feeling empowered by their ability to take control of their sexual identity with the young and inexperienced. I also think the predatory nature of male sexuality in general has meant that there was a tacit acceptance of heterosexual men preying on girls, and in recent times I have realized that this applied to boys too in certain circles. This continues to be a major part of the sexual culture that both men and women participate in. It is why the lack of female pubic hair is considered so much more appealing, and nearly every woman I've known since the late 90's has maintained a hairless vagina. However, as with so many other behavioral "perversions", the standards do not equally apply to women. In a patriarchal culture, the woman is meant to mature into maternalism, thus rendering the idea of the female sex drive repellent past a certain age. As ludicrous as this seems, it is still very much the cultural adherence of the vast majority of people on our planet. 

It is both deeply ironic and quite fascinating that there are many themes in the SEX book that simply wouldn't be allowed to be published today. We live under the illusion that we are more free and tolerant as a society, but in so many ways we are just trapped in the transient convergence of moral standards that are being constantly shaped and reshaped by an ebb and flow of ideas, politics, art, tragedy, and philosophy. Psychology is a field that we consider to be an exact science, when it is in fact completely volatile. If there is anything to learn from all that we are enduring and overcoming this year, it is that nothing is fixed in time and space. Attitudes change. Empires have existed and fallen, and there are many theories about moral turpitude and degeneration in association with their decline. We are certainly not going to be the exception to this rule. How long it takes for things to fall apart will depend greatly upon the way attitudes are nurtured or purged. The more open a society is, the more likely it is to have the legs to survive. 

This!!!  So well written and so very true.  I tip my hat to you.  Sexuality is indeed confusing, and societal values around it can be both murky and arbitrary.  

While I never had sex with an adult as a minor, when I moved away to college at a very fresh 18, I had many encounters with older men (30s--40s).  I didn't and don't feel as though I was taken advantage of in any way, but I also wonder what it is that makes younger people so sexually appealing to some older people.  Is it a culture that values youth as an ideal?  Is it some hope that, by being close in some way to someone younger that their youth will in some way "rub off" on them?  Or is it some other factor(s)?  I don't think any of the men I was with at that time were pedophiles in any way, shape, or form, BTW.  I was a legal, college aged guy who often was the person making the first move.  But it's also curious how society won't condemn an 18 year old and a 40 year old sleeping together, but if it's a 17 year old and a 20 year old, it's a different story, though I know that during one's teenage years a lot of psychological growth and maturity occur, but it's still kind of an interesting juxtaposition in a way.  Also, I am currently 7 years older than my husband (I'm 43 and he's 36) which makes next to no difference now, but it also has made me cringe to think that I was about to graduate high school when he was 10 years old.  Ugh.

[momosfantasy 947]

On 10/25/2020 at 6:58 AM, EgoRod said:

About her Vanity Fair shoot with Meisel.

It's a clear hommage to the Baby girl look from the 50s. Brigitte Bardot with " And God created Women" was the first symbol of what Simone de Beauvoir called the Lolita Syndrome. The idea of adult women that are obedient and sweet but have all of the attributes of a grown up. Still they are agressibly sexual and defiant. Has more to do with patriarchal dominance than pedophilia.

Baby voice, big tits, big lips and sucking thumbs. You saw that in so many of the so called sex symbols: Marilyn, Jane Mansfield, Diana Dors..

In fact you can still seeing that trend in artist like Lana Del rey. Who sings about Daddy and being punished.

I think is important to diferenciate and artistic representation of a socio cultural construction from promotion of an illegal act with minors.

Your responses here are all intelligent, well reasoned, and based on facts.  It's truly a joy to read your posts. I thank you.

[RUADJAI 14,939]

quick side note/question.... I wonder if this is why I can't find the movie Poison Ivy with Drew Barrymore anywhere to buy or rent. 

[Guest DeeperDeeper]

15 hours ago, deathproof said:

Uh..., how? 

I'm too lazy to type, they explain everything here. 

 https://www.indy100.com/article/gay-men-daddy-older-man-age-gap-grindr-tribe-twink-stanley-tucci-9577701

Out of all the intergenerational relationships between men, the genuine ones have been those were the guys were similar in maturity and personality, had shared interests, also if it was open they still hooked up with guys in their peer group - basically age wasn't the factor it was the connection. 

[deathproof 10,587]

45 minutes ago, Ashley said:

I'm too lazy to type, they explain everything here. 

 https://www.indy100.com/article/gay-men-daddy-older-man-age-gap-grindr-tribe-twink-stanley-tucci-9577701

Out of all the intergenerational relationships between men, the genuine ones have been those were the guys were similar in maturity and personality, had shared interests, also if it was open they still hooked up with guys in their peer group - basically age wasn't the factor it was the connection. 

Huh??

[NowRadiate 3,331]

1 hour ago, RUADJAI said:

quick side note/question.... I wonder if this is why I can't find the movie Poison Ivy with Drew Barrymore anywhere to buy or rent. 

It’s available on German Amazon. As a triple feature (including the one with Alyssa Milano).

[RUADJAI 14,939]

1 hour ago, NowRadiate said:

It’s available on German Amazon. As a triple feature (including the one with Alyssa Milano).

is your age of consent 17? I think that's how old Drew was when she made the movie. 

[NowRadiate 3,331]

31 minutes ago, RUADJAI said:

is your age of consent 17? I think that's how old Drew was when she made the movie. 

Not so easy to answer actually.

It’s 14 if both are under 18. If the age difference is no more than 2 or 3 years (example: one is 17, the other one is 14 - or if one is 19, the other one 16), it does not constitute a legal problem.

But this is a fictional story, there is no real sex that happened there, it’s not porn. So no issues with German law, I guess. That’s why it’s available here. 

[boytoy77 189]

On 7/17/2020 at 5:50 AM, Prayer said:

It's tricky. But, again, is a work from almost 30 years ago, she was definitely inspired by the art she discovered growing up and things have changed and evolved in society. Take "Lolita", the movie, for instance. It was controversial at the time but now the backlash in social media would be so hard that it simply wouldn't be accepted.

I doubt she'd have that kind of story now, anyway. Maybe she was just trying to shock, be funny ("ironic"), whatever. The "but he gave me crabs" ending is typical Madonna trying to be funny.

I agree about the Vanity Fair pigtails photoshoot, though, I've never been a big fan of those photos.

But, if he shaved his pubes, or didn't have any, how do you explain her getting crabs from him?? LOL

[Certified Fuck Up 10,494]

As she explained in an interview it's a book of erotic fantasies in the words of character Dita Parlo and she kind of takes on different personas and different characters meaning she was writing she was trying to to think of things ideas what could be erotic but not necessarily things Madonna experienced 1st hand underlying the fact she's playing different personas - she's story-telling! 

 

[Pootz333 2,688]

[into the erotico 972]

On 7/16/2020 at 3:53 PM, Ayham said:

Ok so to end this endless conversation, when I first discovered this book was I believe in 2003/2004... I was soooo young just saw her pic with Vanilla Ice (blue pic) lol I was like WOW!!! That’s Madonna??? I was shocked & in love then I saw the rest of the book from a fan site called Madonna online? It was like heaven on earth. ??? the fact I fell in love with her more lol. I red few stories like the famous Pussy story but I wasn’t into reading the book as much as enjoying the pics... ??? & finally after many years in 2011 I bought one copy from eBay from dad’s credit card lol! I cherish this book & just last year I bought another copy this time sealed one. ?

Ok so my point we Madonna fans or let’s say myself was in love with her bravery... it’s like oh look she’s completely NAKED, she got balls... ohhh she’s talking about sex & stuff!!! That’s cool, however when I grew up I realize that it’s more about the stories, the messages... & that was a complete turn off. It’s just not right in many ways... & then I understood why she got so much hate back then. I’m just imagining someone like Janet Jackson or Mariah Carey or Cher or even Lady Gaga releasing something similar... haha it will be definitely her ENDDDD. M was so lucky she got away with it. ?

me too!

[Starchild 3,075]

I didn't read the thread but M stans should know that she enjoyed sex with 16+ year old Latinos as an adult, back in the day.

She has admitted this twice, publicly. Personally, that feels morally wrong but I also understand that it was a different time.

[rga98 379]

We know she probably slept with that 16 y/o when she was older than that and we don’t care. Can this topic be closed for good? It’s a troll/woke magnet. We don’t care about anybody’s moral compass. If it was consensual and they both enjoyed it, then GOOD FOR HER. Not that long ago I was 16 and I dated guys way older than 20 and I’m perfectly fine. I’m not saying it’s good or bad but I’m saying it happens. Sometimes it seems that times have changed for the worse with the wokes acting like the morality police. Whatever Madonna does in her personal life is her business not ours. An opinion will never be a fact. Just live and let live.

[Jackie 8,060]

28 minutes ago, Ricardo González Anaya said:

We know she probably slept with that 16 y/o when she was older than that and we don’t care. Can this topic be closed for good? It’s a troll/woke magnet. We don’t care about anybody’s moral compass. If it was consensual and they both enjoyed it, then GOOD FOR HER. Not that long ago I was 16 and I dated guys way older than 20 and I’m perfectly fine. I’m not saying it’s good or bad but I’m saying it happens. Sometimes it seems that times have changed for the worse with the wokes acting like the morality police. Whatever Madonna does in her personal life is her business not ours. An opinion will never be a fact. Just live and let live.

Yes agree.