The Mistreatment of Madonna’s Legacy

[steady75 9,560]

A Netflix series would be good for her to recovery with the general public. She needs to feel of the people again and a Netflix series would do that better than a film. But hopefully the film will make its way in to streaming too with the tours to follow. 

[Winn 2,201]

How about the movie encompass her whole life up to the present, and then, at the end, she walks on and plays herself.

[Kae-Leah Williamson 222]

13 hours ago, godx said:

Obviously it doesn't end in 1990 since Erotica and Evita have been confirmed - but wouldn't that be so pointless? 1990 is literally where her career gets interesting, where she starts creating solid skipless albums, becomes a real touring force, sexual liberation work, legitimate reinvention, fighting ageism... everything before 1990 is the fluffy intro to "Madonna" as we know her.

To each their own I guess, because I'm an '80s Madonna fan first and foremost. I like some of her later stuff, but '80s Madonna is what I'm obsessed with. I just love the whole vibe of the era, the fashion, the videos, everything. '90s Madonna often got too avant-garde for my personal taste. 

[bedtimestory 758]

Sadly, shes at the lowest point in her life, nobody knows her anymore, her music is no longer liked, I dont blame the masses, her presentation is chea, basic, unflattering, annoying. Her look and posts are cringe af. And this is comming from a hardcore fan who has supported all her tours!

[bedtimestory 758]

Funny when they say, oh netflix should do something with her, who is interested to see music from a cringy person with grills, botched fillers and a fake horrible ass? Please M ...Sashay away.... IM SORRY BUT SHE HAS MADE A JOKE OUT OF HER ONCE FLAWLESS LEGACY.

[Kae-Leah Williamson 222]

7 minutes ago, bedtimestory said:

Sadly, shes at the lowest point in her life, nobody knows her anymore, her music is no longer liked, I dont blame the masses, her presentation is chea, basic, unflattering, annoying. Her look and posts are cringe af. And this is comming from a hardcore fan who has supported all her tours!

That's why the time is right to remind people about how awesome she used to be. 

[steady75 9,560]

I get the fan point of view of her but in a social context Madonna’s fanbase in termoil about the state of her career and relevancy is as much as a commentary on our own view of the world and our place in it. Madonna is a mirror in which we see ourselves. The old fans anyway. 
I envy new era Madonna fans who came here because they found and respect the legacy and her importance. Older fans who live through it have a different ground point. Neither are correct neither are wrong. It’s just the wrangle of a fan base that’s grown over decades of being around an artist who has appealed to so many people in such a profound way. Literally so few stars have that. The reason for our discourse as fans is a problem only the best of the best artist have. It’s a compliment to her and don’t forget that as annoying as it can be at times. It’s the biggest accolade. 

[bedtimestory 758]

I still love her, I know shes capable of doing better, but I think she let herself go after rebel heart era...I will always go to all her tpurs though, even if theyre not that great...

[Mp1992 259]

2 hours ago, bedtimestory said:

Funny when they say, oh netflix should do something with her, who is interested to see music from a cringy person with grills, botched fillers and a fake horrible ass? Please M ...Sashay away.... IM SORRY BUT SHE HAS MADE A JOKE OUT OF HER ONCE FLAWLESS LEGACY.

Everyone over the age of 18 knows OF her, but unless they're a die hard fan, they're pretty clueless to her legacy and impact.  However, she has the best streaming numbers, Youtube views and YouTube channel subscribers for an over 60 female artist.  Cher and Dolly Parton have it much worse and they seem to get love.  It's weird

 

 

 

 

 

[RinoTheBouncer 1,130]

18 hours ago, godx said:

Even if it doesn't ressurect her career and reputation like we hope it will, it's still an infinately better option than a posthumous biopic imo. 

Very few people really understand Madonna - even a large portion of her own fans have no idea what she stands for.

The 'big budget biopic' will be linked to her career forever and it would SUCK if it was done 20 years from now (post death) by a team she never met, who probably weren't even alive in her prime. She's been vague about most juicy parts of her life so there's assumption, bias and misinformation in that script before it's even written.

There will definitely be big headlines and scandals. Her Michael Jackson romance story (which is almost certain to be in the film) will cause a huge stir. Tupac too. She said in her 2016 WOTY speech how she wished she had a female peer during the Erotica witch-hunt, so she may even include anecdotes relating to that (such as Janet slut-shaming her).

Obviously it doesn't end in 1990 since Erotica and Evita have been confirmed - but wouldn't that be so pointless? 1990 is literally where her career gets interesting, where she starts creating solid skipless albums, becomes a real touring force, sexual liberation work, legitimate reinvention, fighting ageism... everything before 1990 is the fluffy intro to "Madonna" as we know her.

You brought up some really amazing points ??

[Raio_05 777]

I'm sorry but sometimes I feel like I'm living in a different reality than some of her fans. 

Everywhere I go, every time I watch something, every time I meet someone, Madonna is there. Just yesterday I counted 5 Madonna references in shows I've watched in the past week alone. My non-fan friends send me things they see of her all the time, like a t-shirt at a store or whatever. 

The woman had a #1 album in several countries just 18 months ago, followed by a sold-out tour of very expensive tickets that sold like hot cakes. She was universally appraised after 3 mediocre albums and at the age of 60 (!). 

Why do some fans focus so much on the butt and grillz and elevate those things to the same level of her work? That's like 10% of her. Yes, her Instagram is cringy but you guys know she's a boomer, right? lol what did you expect from a 60-year old woman on the internet... and I've seen way worse, to be honest.

I 100% disagree that younger people don't know her music, or at least that's not what I see in my personal experience. Her hit songs from Like a Virgin to Girl Gone Wild are very well known by the few 18-20-year olds I know and they do like her. Online I also get that feedback. She's seen as an icon, the Queen of Pop, the top of the hierarchy. Her status is unchanged by some grillz or whatever she may feel like wearing... 

I understand disliking the implants/grillz/cirurgies but to say she looks "cheap, basic, unflattering" when she's dressed in amazing outfits with bomb-ass makeup and hair for the gods just screams of sexism, ageism and even classism to me... but that's just my point of view. 

[Mp1992 259]

5 minutes ago, Dito said:

I'm sorry but sometimes I feel like I'm living in a different reality than some of her fans. 

Everywhere I go, every time I watch something, every time I meet someone, Madonna is there. Just yesterday I counted 5 Madonna references in shows I've watched in the past week alone. My non-fan friends send me things they see of her all the time, like a t-shirt at a store or whatever. 

The woman had a #1 album in several countries just 18 months ago, followed by a sold-out tour of very expensive tickets that sold like hot cakes. She was universally appraised after 3 mediocre albums and at the age of 60 (!). 

Why do some fans focus so much on the butt and grillz and elevate those things to the same level of her work? That's like 10% of her. Yes, her Instagram is cringy but you guys know she's a boomer, right? lol what did you expect from a 60-year old woman on the internet... and I've seen way worse, to be honest.

I 100% disagree that younger people don't know her music, or at least that's not what I see in my personal experience. Her hit songs from Like a Virgin to Girl Gone Wild are very well known by the few 18-20-year olds I know and they do like her. Online I also get that feedback. She's seen as an icon, the Queen of Pop, the top of the hierarchy. Her status is unchanged by some grillz or whatever she may feel like wearing... 

I understand disliking the implants/grillz/cirurgies but to say she looks "cheap, basic, unflattering" when she's dressed in amazing outfits with bomb-ass makeup and hair for the gods just screams of sexism, ageism and even classism to me... but that's just my point of view. 

exactly.  I work Target and my store has music and they play her probably the most ofany artist   .  I hear her 5 times on an 8-10 hour team lead manager shift.  From Borderline to Ghost town 

 

 

 

[Tiago Lisboa Rodrigues 1,229]

13 hours ago, Dito said:

I'm sorry but sometimes I feel like I'm living in a different reality than some of her fans. 

Everywhere I go, every time I watch something, every time I meet someone, Madonna is there. Just yesterday I counted 5 Madonna references in shows I've watched in the past week alone. My non-fan friends send me things they see of her all the time, like a t-shirt at a store or whatever. 

The woman had a #1 album in several countries just 18 months ago, followed by a sold-out tour of very expensive tickets that sold like hot cakes. She was universally appraised after 3 mediocre albums and at the age of 60 (!). 

Why do some fans focus so much on the butt and grillz and elevate those things to the same level of her work? That's like 10% of her. Yes, her Instagram is cringy but you guys know she's a boomer, right? lol what did you expect from a 60-year old woman on the internet... and I've seen way worse, to be honest.

I 100% disagree that younger people don't know her music, or at least that's not what I see in my personal experience. Her hit songs from Like a Virgin to Girl Gone Wild are very well known by the few 18-20-year olds I know and they do like her. Online I also get that feedback. She's seen as an icon, the Queen of Pop, the top of the hierarchy. Her status is unchanged by some grillz or whatever she may feel like wearing... 

I understand disliking the implants/grillz/cirurgies but to say she looks "cheap, basic, unflattering" when she's dressed in amazing outfits with bomb-ass makeup and hair for the gods just screams of sexism, ageism and even classism to me... but that's just my point of view. 

Some fans have a hard time looking at a woman that doesn't have hits anymore so they say she's over when in fact... she's doing better than anyone at her age. Still #1 albums, best selling theater tour ever just last year, best streaming numbers than anyone from the 80s or prior among female acts, etc. 

How was Tina doing at her age or Cher? Or anyone else? In fact Look at all the women now hitting 50. 10 years younger than madonna.

Mariah is always everywhere during Christmas but no one gave a shit about her album. 

Jlo released s single like 2 months ago and no one cared. Kylie does good in one country. 

Madonna is doing fine. Shame her fans don't realise it just because she's not giving us Confessions part 2 lol.

[Blue Prince 995]

35 minutes ago, Tiago Lisboa Rodrigues said:

Some fans have a hard time looking at a woman that doesn't have hits anymore so they say she's over when in fact... she's doing better than anyone at her age. Still #1 albums, best selling theater tour ever just last year, best streaming numbers than anyone from the 80s or prior among female acts, etc. 

How was Tina doing at her age or Cher? Or anyone else? In fact Look at all the women now hitting 50. 10 years younger than madonna.

Mariah is always everywhere during Christmas but no one gave a shit about her album. 

Jlo released s single like 2 months ago and no one cared. Kylie does good in one country. 

Madonna is doing fine. Shame her fans don't realise it just because she's not giving us Confessions part 2 lol.

Mostly, the fans who are that bitter have been with her from the start. They're not well adapted to today's sound and they don't want that from Madonna. If they could they would have her work on old material, rerelease things and never do anything new again unless it's with Patrick Leonard. 

We have to respect them because they are the ones that made her all rich and famous and I understand how it pains them to see her sell one million copies at best when she could hit thirty in her prime. However I don't understand why people who used to be fans would go dragging her as she is now on some forum. If I didn't enjoy her music anymore I would listen to her older albums and never watch what happens with her online.

Sure she has been the most successful female artist during every stage of her career compared to her peers and she still is now. I try to tell people here that while she is still alive she doesn't belong to a museum and must produce more music, that will be her legacy. Her legacy is not complete yet. And I feel like everything she does is looked upon by some lens that distorts reality. She can do an acclaimed song or performance that media will love her for and here the perception is always of it being mediocre.

Bitter fans can be right about many things but sometimes when something is bothering you more than it pleases you, it's better to relax and try to learn from those who still enjoy it. Because current Madonna might be a nightmare to remind some how age destroys things, but she is also a role model to others who are young now. And a better one at that than most out there.

[Erlend 165]

On 2/1/2021 at 12:44 AM, Blue Prince said:

Mostly, the fans who are that bitter have been with her from the start. They're not well adapted to today's sound and they don't want that from Madonna. If they could they would have her work on old material, rerelease things and never do anything new again unless it's with Patrick Leonard. 

We have to respect them because they are the ones that made her all rich and famous and I understand how it pains them to see her sell one million copies at best when she could hit thirty in her prime. However I don't understand why people who used to be fans would go dragging her as she is now on some forum. If I didn't enjoy her music anymore I would listen to her older albums and never watch what happens with her online.

Sure she has been the most successful female artist during every stage of her career compared to her peers and she still is now. I try to tell people here that while she is still alive she doesn't belong to a museum and must produce more music, that will be her legacy. Her legacy is not complete yet. And I feel like everything she does is looked upon by some lens that distorts reality. She can do an acclaimed song or performance that media will love her for and here the perception is always of it being mediocre.

Bitter fans can be right about many things but sometimes when something is bothering you more than it pleases you, it's better to relax and try to learn from those who still enjoy it. Because current Madonna might be a nightmare to remind some how age destroys things, but she is also a role model to others who are young now. And a better one at that than most out there.

I'm not too sure that her older fans are bitter. Not everyone, anyway ?

Edited February 3, 2021 by Erlend (see edit history)

[Loki 227]

This thread reminds me a lot The Last Dance, a Netflix-ESPN documentary about Michael Jordan and his final season in NBA with Chicago Bulls. Unfortunately, the series was all and solely about Mike, his teammates were almost excluded from the storytelling. It was very pretentious, but it reinforced MJ's status. Ah, the series was the most viewed ESPN documentary ever and it was loved by fans, especially the younger ones. Back to the topic, I don't think re-releases or curated social media can help her legacy: it's reductive (sorry...), her impact is beyond music. Recently I found out several short documentaries about her career, from her music to how she shaped the new women role in society: it's great she agreed to make a movie about her life, but if she was able to make her own Last Dance, a cycle of documentaries about her, not her life or career, it could help people to understand how deeply she changed society, common mentality and music. Personally I'd avoid sensationalist tones, they could generate even more hate towards her, but it would be an incredible opportunity to educate younger generations (they need it so badly). If she released a proper classic album (I hate to admit it, but with no experimentation) in conjunction with it, she'd win the jackpot: love and above all respect from the GP and press. To be short, we should expect Evita part II.

[Raio_05 777]

12 hours ago, Blue Prince said:

Because current Madonna might be a nightmare to remind some how age destroys things

Yap, I think this sums it up perfectly. I mean, she couldn't have been on top FOREVER. She's been active for nearly 4 decades (!!) with a constant stream of hits. How many artists in the history of music have had that privilege?!

I also think it boils down to projection. Fans are also getting older themselves and the reality of age hits them. To see their once-near-divine-goddess canceling shows because her body is starting to cave in and not being the center of news everywhere anymore is a bit of a shock. But it's normal, it's expected, it's life.

Age is not destroying her, age is reinventing her again. Although I do wish that reinvention didn't include grillz.

[me1981 1,358]

She easily could have done legacy releases in between new album releases. 2010 to 2011 was a perfect time for it and again 2013 - 2014 and so on. Gives fans something to whet their appetite with too while waiting for the next new thing.

I don't think it would have made her an oldies act, but would have been a great intro for younger fans and kept her in the public eye during down time and may have even helped bring attention to her newer releases at the time. The spaces between albums I think, in this even faster paced age, actually hurt a bit too. I noticed as the years went on people simply forgot about who she was, not her name, but her legacy. 

I do hope the film does bring to light what made Madonna the legend she is. I also would love a Crown type mini series, though not sure five season would go down well, with me it would, haha. Even three or four seasons, the 70's, 80's, 90's and hell the 00's too.

She could still do both, but I highly doubt that will ever happen. 

[nito84bcn 2,734]

As I said several times here... the transition between Confessions and Hard Candy was forced, and the second one had horrible and cheap videos, and this includes Celebration too. She did those, when the video format was rising again with Lady Gaga / Rihanna and Youtube. Even LMFAO had better videos than her. 

It was obvious that she didn't care anymore. MDNA felt the same, but the visuals and the tour were better, and Rebel Heart she tried what the fans were demanding for ages: traditional promo, but I think it didn't work as they expected (but I think is the album / era from the 10's that we like the most here). 

We can understand that she's 62 now, and she's slowing down, nobody asked here for more acrobats, but more about live singing and band.

She didn't think that when she signed for 82 dates for Madame X Theatre?? She (or her team) didn't think that after 3 years gap without music, concentrate all the promo in only 2 months and a half and leave the album diying alone is not a good move for the public in general, specially after the debacle of Eurovision?? Where is the planning, the team, the queen of adapting to the circumstances? 
 

Sometimes it seems that she doesn't care of what she achieved, and the standard of quality that once she had, has dropped a lot. That plus endless waitings and soons, for me, are the main reasons that she's not considered important anymore. Kylie can have success in 1 country, but her quality and her dedication make it seem than she's the queen of the universe right now. 

[steady75 9,560]

I think the industry as a whole had learned that the big money ( in fact any money) came from tour ticket sales so they naturally moved towards that format and stepped away from investing in videos. Truth is a lot of Madonnas videos had sensible budget but there was a lot of creativity in the early days and artistic merit in the later with budget increasing in the late 80's and 90's when MJ was about. It was poor timing re the Gaga thing but it really did leave Madonna wide open. Sure she was making bank but Gaga was bucking the trend and spending every penny she earned on set, clothes, make up and videos. It really put her leagues ahead of anyone else in the game and secured her legacy and place among the best. She's mellowed a lot since but peak Gaga was Jackson level impressive at times. Just excellent. This had really never happened before. Even with Britney and Bey. Madonna had no competition. 

[Arckangel 265]

On 1/30/2021 at 4:17 PM, bedtimestory said:

Funny when they say, oh netflix should do something with her, who is interested to see music from a cringy person with grills, botched fillers and a fake horrible ass? Please M ...Sashay away.... IM SORRY BUT SHE HAS MADE A JOKE OUT OF HER ONCE FLAWLESS LEGACY.

I don't understand... It's like people who stopped listening to Katy Perry just because she cut her hair short and went (and stayed) platinum. What matters the most is the artist's voice (the unique sound of their voice, the emotion, the delivery), their lyrics and overall music. The rest comes afterwards. You do have a point; some people will pay more attention to the artist's look or image, but it doesn't make much sense if the artist delivers such quality work. In all of Mo's recent albums (Hard Candy, MDNA, Rebel Heart, Madame X), I'm sure there are quite some songs all of you here like (I may have my favourites, but I like them all).

[Pootz333 2,679]

On 1/30/2021 at 6:20 PM, steady75 said:

The reason for our discourse as fans is a problem only the best of the best artist have. It’s a compliment to her and don’t forget that as annoying as it can be at times. It’s the biggest accolade. 

Put it on a plaque!

 

[DiegoLCL 5,031]

19 hours ago, steady75 said:

I think the industry as a whole had learned that the big money ( in fact any money) came from tour ticket sales so they naturally moved towards that format and stepped away from investing in videos. Truth is a lot of Madonnas videos had sensible budget but there was a lot of creativity in the early days and artistic merit in the later with budget increasing in the late 80's and 90's when MJ was about. It was poor timing re the Gaga thing but it really did leave Madonna wide open. Sure she was making bank but Gaga was bucking the trend and spending every penny she earned on set, clothes, make up and videos. It really put her leagues ahead of anyone else in the game and secured her legacy and place among the best. She's mellowed a lot since but peak Gaga was Jackson level impressive at times. Just excellent. This had really never happened before. Even with Britney and Bey. Madonna had no competition. 

Tours gave her more money for sure, but here's the thing: Drowned World was her comeback to the stage after 8 years, Re-Invention was a greatest hits tour in disguise, Confessions was massive because she had the general public with ALBUM AND THE SINGLES, Sticky & Sweet was huge only because it came right after Confessions and she went to a lot of places she hasn't been since Girlie Show. Since then the tours have been scaled down, and this whole theather thing, like it or not, was not an artistic choice, she just wouldn't be able to tour Stadiums/Arenas. Her name only doesn't sell stadiums, simple as that, she needs to be out there on the general public's eyes to do that and they abandoned everything else to focus on touring.

[Glindathegood 772]

Rebel Heart played arenas, and did fairly well.  She has never played stadiums in the US. 
A lot of the artists that sell out stadiums don’t do it based on their new music, but do it based on their back catalogue and play Greatest Hits shows such as U2 and The Rolling Stones. 

[nito84bcn 2,734]

I think the COVID crisis will benefit all the artists. There was a point in 2019 that I wasn't bothered of goind to any of her concerts. 

If she doesn't have REAL interest / I'm not going to have it. That's simple.

BUT, after all 2020 and probably a great part of 2021 without any live gig, I'm STARVING for an arena Madonna tour. If she's smart, she can tour arenas again after the movie, I think there it will be demand for it. 

Also, if she returs to Warner, a lot of old releases probably will have green light to match the movie, and probably good press about her legacy (when was the last time that this happened?)
There is always hope.