Madonna and ageism - where lies the problem?

[RebelHeart 750]

So I've been thinking about it for a while now...

Madonna has been struggling with ageism for a long time and I agree - people pay too much attention to her age. Actually, many pop stars experience that now even at a younger age... Britney, Katy, etc. - they used to be so successful but as they become older, the popularity decreases. Madonna at least was still making hits in 2012 (well, I think GMAYL and GGW were relatively popular), or 2008 (4 Minutes was a hit for sure) - so she was 50 then.

I think her age has been discussing more since RH era? And from that moment Madonna has addressed the issue many times. To certain extent I agree with her but isn't it like she is also contributing to that phenomenon? I don't want to go into details there coz I think she has every right to do with her body everything she wants to... but if you are so focused on looking and act young isn't it like showing that growing old is something bad and acceptable? I love her but to me it's a little bit hypocritical.

It seems to me that she wants to fight ageism but at the same time she cannot accept the fact that you are not gonna stay young forever. How do you fight ageism then?

What do you think? I'm so curious. And I don't want to start a fight here - I believe we all love Madonna here, so let's just discuss it without being rude. ;)

 

[Guest Nobody Knows Me]

Personally, while ageism has definitely contributed to her commercial decline, I think another factor is that sadly I don't think the singles she has released in the past decade have been up there with what younger artists have been releasing. Why would radio play Girl Gone Wild when they can just play Hold It Against Me or We Found Love? She was still getting played in her 40s and 50s when she released Hung Up and 4 Minutes because they are brilliant pop songs, or at least I think they are.

Like I said earlier, she does experience ageism and it really comes through in album reviews, but I don't think it's the only reason why her recent songs don't get as much airplay anymore.

[Prayer 14,263]

Mmmhm it's complicated.

The fact that she had a worldwide pop hit AT 49 with "4 Minutes" is incredible. As you said, much younger posters now are considered "old" and "past". Katy Perry is still young but considered old for her game.

I think there was a cultural shift after the 2009 financial crisis and the rise of social media. Everything is more focused in the moment since then, not the long run. And with older artists like Madonna the legacy is part of their power. I never thought Madonna would never be relevant or a main cultural force, but after 2012 she seems to be part of a previous world scheme that no longer exists? Not her fault, of course.

The fact that she doesn't like to play the game does not help either. She could have joined a celebrities judge panel on "The Voice", "X Factor" whatever, but she'd never do that (thank God).

Also, with her finally growing older people who want to attack her finally have a point, cause yes, she's old now. And we all are going to be one day. But people finally have a real excuse to attack her and feel validated.

She has the right to do whatever she wants to do with her body. I think it's sad some fans (and general public) complain about her looks or what's she's done to her face/body/whatever but had no problem at all with all that when those looks fit the image they wanted to see (for instance, the "Confessions" era). She's not anyone's bitch.

Ageism is the final battle for her: remember people were calling her "grandma" at 35. It sucks. And yes, it doesn't happen with men.

[Régine Filange 2,582]

No one struggles with ageism at the age of 30-40 anymore, she was the one struggling with ageism at her 30s. The ageist comments didn't start at the 2010s or during Rebel Heart, they were happening since the 90s.

[Régine Filange 2,582]

Also if she was aging "gracefully" the media and the world would've eat her alive 5x times as they always do. The problem and the hypocrite isn't Madonna for doing whatever she wants with her life. Check the DailyMail comments under her articles, there are people that literally search her images in HQ just to detect wrinkles in her face. 

[OhBabyReadyOrNot 659]

Madonna is part of the problem. She's always been very vain and superficial and that has come to bite her in the butt because people now ask: How can a woman, so obsessed with perfection, go downhill, both physically and career-wise? The answer: It always does. Nothing lasts forever.

As for Madonna just following her heart and supposedly going against the grain and doing what she wants to do, she's not doing anything the rest of us aren't doing. We're all doing our own thing and she shouldn't be cherished for following the herd mentality.

[rlittler81 1,601]

I do absolutely think she is a victim of ageism but I also think that’s in part because she’s become something of a cliche in her old age so it’s easy for people to attack her because of her age.

[RUADJAI 14,902]

Madonna is a brand. Madonna is a business. Part of that business is looking good. Just listen to yourselves when she comes out and she's looking better than you've seen in a while. You guys go nuts for it. Part of the appeal of a pop star is beauty. She was never gonna go the natural route like say Donna Delory. Her career would have ended long before, and with her career would have gone a whole section of the economy.   

 

So I dont agree when someone says you can't be a victim of ageism while simultaneously doing things to make you look better/younger. Every single person does things in their life to make themselves look better and more presentable. She also waxes her mustache Im sure. Should she just let it grow out because she should age naturally?

[DiegoLCL 5,034]

She managed to stay "relevant" and successful a lot longer than any other pop star whilest being called old. I do not see any woman that will be able to be as successful as she was between her 40's until her 50's, maybe only Beyoncé.
But I do think that the quality of her work and her label/team doing all the work (that was not perfect, but was enough) has a lot to do with it. I don't think her "being old" is the only, or even primarily, reason for her decline in the zeitgeist.

[Ayham 5,471]

Madonna is one LUCKY woman her time & the people who worked with her helped her a lot... of course she herself managed to stay on the top for a veryyyyy long period.
 

Music industry is not the same as it used to be in 80’s / 90’s & even early 00’s... now it’s all about today’s artists... it’s crazy tbh... just look at Ariana, Selena even ADELE?!!! All vanishing slowly... it’s something sad.

 

So if she’s flopping at this age / time is not a big deal. It’s just a reality. We can’t escape life & aging although she did for a pretty good time. ?

[emanon 2,377]

the problem is on people's minds...

[Scottyx 8,756]

I think Madonna herself has an issue with her age. She won't admit it.  But you know the expression about protesting too much.

[Holy Water 94 3,374]

Well for me she is still doing okay, she can say whatever about her age but in real life we all know how old she is and that body is not able to do thing like 10 years ago and that is okay, i'm just happy that she is still with us. Right now it seems to me that she is surrounded with so many people that are telling "yes" to her for everything, watching her interviews from like Confessions era and then from Rebel Heart era you can see that she is acting differenetly, like she was more mature back then? If that make any sense? She is apsolutely free to behave how she wants to, BUT the fact that she is doing songs with crappy artists is just not good.

[Husam Elzien 656]

She managed to outlast her female contemporaries in terms of relevance. Bitch I'm Madonna, despite its low chart placing on the Hot 100 gave Madonna the distinction of being the oldest woman to chart a song on the main chart (excluding recurring holiday songs) at 56 years, 10 months. No one stays on top forever. The only difference between the past and present is that people cycle through music artists at double the speed today.

To be fair, no one should be expecting Madonna to be charting on the singles chart at this point. Charting singles for 30 years is a success story in itself. Most singers around her age can't say they have that distinction.

[cosmicarlo818 2,010]

Can you imagine if Madonna would just come out and surprise everyone by starring in a modern Sunset Boulevard adaptation as a response to all this ageism? Like it would be her ultimate "fuck you here I am, older wiser and owning it still" response. Imagine she really does it so well - acting, singing, & all - and the film does really well and receives critical and public acclaim like she never had before. It would be like this new "comeback" so to speak.

Wow it would be like an entrance to yet another great era for her and for fans. Oh man if only 

[lucasciccone 4,216]

Mmh I don't think she's being hypocritical, but the victim here. If everyone is telling you all the time in every moment that you have to be young or stay young to be appreciated, then I think it's understandable that she would try everything she can to do that. Sadly that includes surgeries and things that we all would prefer she won't get into. But it is what it is.

In the other hand, I personally don't see a problem with her showing her body or things like that. She has always been this way. But I can totally understand why people would go nuts over her showing her boobs at her 50s/60s. It's not okay in the eyes of a patriarchal society.

I don't know. I don't think she's part of the problem. The problem exists since forever, but we know she won't just stay in the mold. She always goes against the rules, why not this time (and that doesn't mean she wont get hurt by every stone thrown at her, she's human after all, so she's able to complain).

[PaperFaces 5,605]

They were calling her grandma in 1993 as she was deemed to old to perform in skimpy outfits.

The problem isnt Madonna. 

The problem is some people decided somehow that what you do, how you do it and how rigourously you do it should be invertly proportionate to your age.

Which is why most people in the 60's will never achieve half the shit Madonna had done by the time she was 30.

People's noise comes out alot. You just have to get used to tuning it out.

Also...the people today who call her old forget she's been dealing with this for thirty years so, you know, maybe theyre getting old

[Arckangel 265]

12 hours ago, Nobody Knows Me said:

Personally, while ageism has definitely contributed to her commercial decline, I think another factor is that sadly I don't think the singles she has released in the past decade have been up there with what younger artists have been releasing. Why would radio play Girl Gone Wild when they can just play Hold It Against Me or We Found Love? She was still getting played in her 40s and 50s when she released Hung Up and 4 Minutes because they are brilliant pop songs, or at least I think they are.

Like I said earlier, she does experience ageism and it really comes through in album reviews, but I don't think it's the only reason why her recent songs don't get as much airplay anymore.

Mmm... I'm not sure I agree w/ that. What if Britney Spears or Rihanna had released Girl Gone Wild or Taylor Swift had released Ghosttown or I Rise ? What if Miley Cyrus had released Crave (with Swae Lee) ? Ghosstown and Crave not making it to the Hot 100 top 10 is sufficient proof of pure ageism.

Take a look... https://www.billboard.com/charts/hot-100 Madonna's stuff (since MDNA) is on par w/ all that. Fallen Free, Love Spent, Devil Pray, Joan of Arc, Wash All Over Me, Dark Ballet, I Don't Search I Find, Faz Gostoso, Medellín and God Control to name those are quite impressive IMO. Something about Inside Out reminds me of the 80s for some reason...

Taste is subjective, but objectively, Madonna's a veteran writer, producer, and she associates w/ top writers/producers that charge at least $10,000+ per song. I don't think quality is the issue at all, and couldn't radios make room for both Madonna's stuff and stuff by other acts?

Further argument... They've been doing the very same thing to Mylène Farmer in France for years now. NRJ used to play her a whole lot and give her plenty of awards—they're not playing her anymore. Why is that? It's certainly not because of quality of her work. Some stations will play her recent stuff (made w/ top writers/producers) but many won't.

 

1 hour ago, PaperFaces said:

They were calling her grandma in 1993 as she was deemed to old to perform in skimpy outfits.

The problem isnt Madonna. 

The problem is some people decided somehow that what you, how you do it and how rigourously you do it should be invertly proportionate to your age.

Which is why most people in the 60's will never achieve half the shit Madonna had done by the time she was 30.

People's noise comes out alot. You just have to get used to tuning it out.

That was quite odd as that was just three years after Blond Ambition. I realize humans are too death-conscious. (Why is the human lifespan so short?) According to some philosophies, we could actually live much longer...

Technically, a human can live up to 120 years old of age, but most (if I'm not mistaken) don't even live up to 100 years old of age. So, someone is their mid to late thirties is already old...

Edited March 8, 2021 by Arckangel (see edit history)

[PaperFaces 5,605]

 

She was 35. 

[Arckangel 265]

@PaperFaces Yeah... That's unbelievable. So Beyoncé and Nicki Minaj must be grandmas too, being in their late thirties. All that said, there should be more movements to fight ageism (just like there are so many movements to fight sexism, racism, etc.). And ageism should be proscribed for radio stations and award shows.

Edited March 8, 2021 by Arckangel (see edit history)

[Guest Nobody Knows Me]

8 hours ago, Arckangel said:

Mmm... I'm not sure I agree w/ that. What if Britney Spears or Rihanna had released Girl Gone Wild or Taylor Swift had released Ghosttown or I Rise ? What if Miley Cyrus had released Crave (with Swae Lee) ? Ghosstown and Crave not making it to the Hot 100 top 10 is sufficient proof of pure ageism.

Take a look... https://www.billboard.com/charts/hot-100 Madonna's stuff (since MDNA) is on par w/ all that. Fallen Free, Love Spent, Devil Pray, Joan of Arc, Wash All Over Me, Dark Ballet, I Don't Search I Find, Faz Gostoso, Medellín and God Control to name those are quite impressive IMO. Something about Inside Out reminds me of the 80s for some reason...

Taste is subjective, but objectively, Madonna's a veteran writer, producer, and she associates w/ top writers/producers that charge at least $10,000+ per song. I don't think quality is the issue at all, and couldn't radios make room for both Madonna's stuff and stuff by other acts?

Further argument... They've been doing the very same thing to Mylène Farmer in France for years now. NRJ used to play her a whole lot and give her plenty of awards—they're not playing her anymore. Why is that? It's certainly not because of quality of her work. Some stations will play her recent stuff (made w/ top writers/producers) but many won't.

I did say that I think ageism has been a big contribution as well, I just don't think it's the only contribution. You're right in saying that songs like Ghosttown and Crave probably would have been played more had they been released by younger artists, and I think they're both fantastic songs personally. However, what I've noticed with younger artists is that when they're at their commercial peak, radio will play anything they release whether fans regard them as fantastic or forgettable. Even Madonna released some singles in the 80s that weren't that good, but they did well simply because she was at the top and they played anything she released, so if Taylor Swift or Britney Spears had released Girl Gone Wild or Living for Love or Crave and they'd been played on the radio, I don't think it really accounts for whether they're good songs or not.

I think she has released a lot of fantastic and impressive material over the past decade, but I think another issue is that a lot of them weren't released as singles, and I think bad single choices are another contribution to her not getting played as often. There have been numerous reasons for her commercial decline, some being more subjective than others, but I do agree that ageism has played the biggest part, but I don't think it's the only part.

[Voguerista 11,725]

I think we all fight ageism. As we get older, it’s hard because our spirits and minds feel young, but our physical self slows down. I have to say though that Madonna has fought it all so gracefully and the key(in my opinion) is staying active, eating right, keeping an open mind, keep trying new things, keep laughing and being positive, and keep your mind young at heart and it will all come through like she’s done time and time again. She especially reminded me of this when she went pink recently. Great thread! 

[Blondie 505]

Back in the day I say around 2010....Kylie fans were calling Madonna 'grandoga'.....they have since gone quiet now what with Kylie being 52 lol!

 

As someone mentioned above, she has been on the receiving end since she was in her early 30's...that is society for you, it's worse now with the internet, and of course social media.

[LikeAMelody 728]

Discrimination is based on fear. Depending on the unchecked severity of that fear or how irrational it is it can turn into hate and or very bad decisions. 

Everyone except for the most enlightened among us is afraid of getting older because getting older means eventually dying. Being ageist is not irrational to a person who thinks this is all there is. To people who believe the soul is eternal, aging is just transformation of the body but the soul is as it always was and they tend to pay more attention to what is going on inside a person. 

Certain religious teachings have really lost the plot, especially in the United States. They focus more on the physical than the spiritual which is why people secure in the belief of the soul are finding thier own way spiritually. Ironically the people clinging most to religion and advertising thier beliefs are the ones who believe the physical is all there is if they are being honest. Thier interest in religion is based on fear. This is why they often become fanatical and thier beliefs often are the opposite of the teachings. 

People who believe in the soul of a person are not immune to the biological realities of our existence which is where our struggle comes in. When I was young I cut my hair and used makeup because I believe it enhanced my appearance. I dye my hair now for the same reasons. Am I not accepting getting older if I dye my hair? Maybe that is true but I do not think of it that way. I liked the color of my hair the way it was before just like I preferred a certain eye shadow in my twenties because it enhanced the color of my eyes. I don't know. I value myself as a person now as much as I did then. Do others feel the same?

I do know one thing and that is my main focus is on what is going on inside a person so while I can have an opinion on choices Madonna makes regarding her appearance I do not obsess over them. Are fans who go on and on over the fact that Madonna is not "aging gracefully" actually not aging gracefully themselves? It's just a question. Like aging is a condition and it's not just the person looking after thier physical appearance the same as they did in thier twenties. Should we be paying more attention to her thoughts than we are? Ask and you shall receive. 

While I thought Madonna looked cool when she first arrived on the music scene what set her apart for me was her aura. There were a lot of music stars that looked cool but my main interest in Madonna was what I saw beyond her looks. I always thought she dressed up to get people not like me to pay attention to her ? because they could not see beyond physical appearance; especially when it came to women. 

I think Madonna wants desperately to think on a purely spiritual level but is bound by physical appearance because so many demand that and I do believe that constant pressure has caught up with her a bit where her appearance has become somewhat rebellious in nature. She's pushing back against people who only care about the physical, pushing back against the unfairness of nature. Older men date younger women so she will date younger men. If something seems unjust, she fights it. She also brings out what people pay attention to in her work and her public persona is part of her work as an artist I believe. 

Is she also working on belief in only the physical? Her public persona suggests that's true but her work as a music artist has had me fooled then. Her interests seem to go way beyond physical appearance and age. 

Aging gracefully in my opinion is also about maturity. I do not believe most see the real her. 

 

 

[EgoRod 5,426]

The only reason they keep giving her a hard time about her age and her looks is because she is woman.

Why the heck we still having Paul McCartney spitting a new record every 6 months?

His face is like a prune and nobody makes a comment about it or goes into the main page of a tabloid every time he comes with a single.

And there are more examples. 

Ageing gracefully is having a great professional career along your path. And being happy with what you have. And keep doing what you want to do. I think she is doing great.