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Why did Madonna leave Warner in the 1st Place ??


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3 minutes ago, me1981 said:

 I think Guy and M are too close as friends and it is harder to be tough with a friend. 

Exactly! At this point, Madonna is surrounded by her friends. And Guy O is one of them. It's not a surprise if he was more of a yes man than anything else. Madonna's well-known for kicking out people who disagree with her vision.

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5 hours ago, Roland Barthes said:

Because she wanted more money, because she was mad at Warner because theu sued her regarding Maverick and she had to countersue them and because the music industry changed in 2007. Peer to peer and itunes killed the industry. Live Nation promised Madonna stuff they could not deliver like traditional record companies used to and they did as they went along, it did not work (manufacturing, distribution, promotion). Warner could not secure a touring contract and then artists thought that's where the money was gonna be in the future. Streaming killed what was left of the recording industry. She took a chance, made a lot of money, killed a lot of her artistry in the process. 

This is a fair assessment. 💪🏼🙏🏼💛

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She was basically a non-stop touring act at the time. In 2005, she said that she only made albums to tour. She wanted to do them quickly and get back out on the road. FF to 2021, her touring days are probably numbered (maybe one final worldwide Greatest Hits tour in 10 years). She was left without a label in the Live Nation deal and it shows. She'll want a real label as the musical side of her career is going to be concentrating on albums albums again, not tours, especially as covid is going to be with us for quite awhile longer. It makes sense for her to go back to WB. Get what she makes actually promoted. I could see her doing a few shows in select cities in the future. When she'll actually do an album again, who knows? It could be awhile before we hear anything, although maybe she'll contribute to a soundtrack or something. 

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3 hours ago, madgefan said:

Exactly! At this point, Madonna is surrounded by her friends. And Guy O is one of them. It's not a surprise if he was more of a yes man than anything else. Madonna's well-known for kicking out people who disagree with her vision.

After Guy massively fucked up with U2, I thought she'd ditch him. She needs to do a housecleaning. 

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2 hours ago, Garry Howieson said:

ok, i forgot how good that song was. and the vid. but one more chance...... :hearno:

Right?

OMC is the song that should've been hidden away in the vault, never to be leaked! I mean. Is it possible for M to sound any whinier?

I only bought the cd-single cause I wanted Veras. (which wasn't included on the Eurpean edition of You'll See)

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9 hours ago, me1981 said:

I feel like Seymour (who ran Sire at the time M was signed, not WB) gets too much credit. Michael Rosenblatt was far more instrumental in Madonna's early rise. Seymour more than likely signed her in part because of Rosenblatt, who guided her very early career. Not that Seymour did nothing, he did and should be credited too of course. 

 

You should read his autobiography. It is absolutely not true. Seymour is the one who kept her at Warner bcause they wanted nothing to do with her, he flew to London to have her signed to WEA the european branch of Warner because he thought she was more in tune with Europe. So Madonna was signd to WEA until Borderline and Mo Ostin (warner ceo at the time) finally realized she had potential. He also fought for her to get money from Like A Virgin because Nile Rodgers contract and Warner contract were eating all profits so he fought hard so she'd get money out of it otherwise she could have been another TLC.

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8 hours ago, drivebitch said:

She was basically a non-stop touring act at the time. In 2005, she said that she only made albums to tour. She wanted to do them quickly and get back out on the road. FF to 2021, her touring days are probably numbered (maybe one final worldwide Greatest Hits tour in 10 years). She was left without a label in the Live Nation deal and it shows. She'll want a real label as the musical side of her career is going to be concentrating on albums albums again, not tours, especially as covid is going to be with us for quite awhile longer. It makes sense for her to go back to WB. Get what she makes actually promoted. I could see her doing a few shows in select cities in the future. When she'll actually do an album again, who knows? It could be awhile before we hear anything, although maybe she'll contribute to a soundtrack or something. 

there are people older than her still touring and they were never bigger than her at touring in their peak yeasr

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7 hours ago, Roland Barthes said:

You should read his autobiography. It is absolutely not true. Seymour is the one who kept her at Warner bcause they wanted nothing to do with her, he flew to London to have her signed to WEA the european branch of Warner because he thought she was more in tune with Europe. So Madonna was signd to WEA until Borderline and Mo Ostin (warner ceo at the time) finally realized she had potential. He also fought for her to get money from Like A Virgin because Nile Rodgers contract and Warner contract were eating all profits so he fought hard so she'd get money out of it otherwise she could have been another TLC.

"I thought I was going to be her Producer for ever...."

Nile Rodgers has said they agreed to his high wage as a Producer 'coz they thought the second album would sell 6-8 million copies at most.

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2 hours ago, professormouse said:

"I thought I was going to be her Producer for ever...."

Nile Rodgers has said they agreed to his high wage as a Producer 'coz they thought the second album would sell 6-8 million copies at most.

But all this charged on Madonna's share. It's all in Siren Song the Seymour Stein autobiography, it's a really great read not just for Madonna but it also doubles down as a history of the american recording industry.

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14 hours ago, Roland Barthes said:

You should read his autobiography. It is absolutely not true. Seymour is the one who kept her at Warner bcause they wanted nothing to do with her, he flew to London to have her signed to WEA the european branch of Warner because he thought she was more in tune with Europe. So Madonna was signd to WEA until Borderline and Mo Ostin (warner ceo at the time) finally realized she had potential. He also fought for her to get money from Like A Virgin because Nile Rodgers contract and Warner contract were eating all profits so he fought hard so she'd get money out of it otherwise she could have been another TLC.

I was talking more the first year. It really was Michael Rosenblatt. Michael got Reggie Lucas in, he took M to LA as the NYC execs hated her and got her more money to complete the first LP and for more publicity and he got Jellybean on board who found Holiday. He also introduced her to Freddy DeMann, she had asked for MJ's manager and Michael made it happen. I am sure Seymour was doing stuff at that time too, but it does seem he got more involved and Rosenblatt less involved towards the end of 83 or beginning of 84. 

Yes Seymour believed in her and definitely supported her, but he was a busy man and it was Michael's job to guide M more in the day to day. Seymour would have done some of the big stuff. I have no doubt he trusted his A&R guy Michael who truly believed in her. 

M met Michael before Seymour. It was because of Michael that her demo got to Seymour and she met him in the hospital. 

And my point was Seymour gets all the credit and Rosenblatt gets pretty much none. I definitely was not saying Seymour deserved none of the credit. 

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14 hours ago, Roland Barthes said:

You should read his autobiography. It is absolutely not true. Seymour is the one who kept her at Warner bcause they wanted nothing to do with her, he flew to London to have her signed to WEA the european branch of Warner because he thought she was more in tune with Europe. So Madonna was signd to WEA until Borderline and Mo Ostin (warner ceo at the time) finally realized she had potential. He also fought for her to get money from Like A Virgin because Nile Rodgers contract and Warner contract were eating all profits so he fought hard so she'd get money out of it otherwise she could have been another TLC.

 

12 minutes ago, me1981 said:

I was talking more the first year. It really was Michael Rosenblatt. Michael got Reggie Lucas in, he took M to LA as the NYC execs hated her and got her more money to complete the first LP and for more publicity and he got Jellybean on board who found Holiday. He also introduced her to Freddy DeMann, she had asked for MJ's manager and Michael made it happen. I am sure Seymour was doing stuff at that time too, but it does seem he got more involved and Rosenblatt less involved towards the end of 83 or beginning of 84. 

Yes Seymour believed in her and definitely supported her, but he was a busy man and it was Michael's job to guide M more in the day to day. Seymour would have done some of the big stuff. I have no doubt he trusted his A&R guy Michael who truly believed in her. 

M met Michael before Seymour. It was because of Michael that her demo got to Seymour and she met him in the hospital. 

And my point was Seymour gets all the credit and Rosenblatt gets pretty much none. I definitely was not saying Seymour deserved none of the credit. 

Camille says hi

 

camille-barbone-soho-NYC-madonna-1980s.jpg

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On 7/30/2021 at 8:43 PM, thegoldencalf said:

She made a few brave decisions going agains her management and label that turned out to be great. And everyone started calling her a marketing genius. And it went to her head. 
Warner and her first 2 managers were a big part of her success though.

I think the main problem was never her switching labels. It was mainly her managing herself and being a know it all

1000000% all of this.

Things started to go downhill when Freddy stopped managing her. 

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Since we're on this topic, here is something that has always baffled me....

Warner notoriously wanted "Amazing" as a single over "Impressive Instant". They also apparently were responsible for scrapping M's plans to work with The Pet Shop Boys, in order to work with producers to create an album that sounded 5 years late.

This is the same Warner that heard the "American Life" album and had no issues with it??? They didn't have a problem with the first single choice? That video? That one of their most successful artists, during one of the greatest comebacks and runs in pop history, was putting out a record full of songs that were guaranteed not to be played on American radio??? Even without the war themed video and photoshoot, even a track like "Nothing Fails" wouldn't have made a dent at radio. It was a weird time in the US music scene.

I've always loved AL. But it's always confused the hell out of me that Warner tried to go a super commercial route many times, except for the AL era.

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My take? Who would risk their entire reputation and twist Madonna's arm (to get her to do something that she does not agree without). If you would be proven wrong after all that effort, you would never hear the end of it!

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59 minutes ago, me1981 said:

I was talking more the first year. It really was Michael Rosenblatt. Michael got Reggie Lucas in, he took M to LA as the NYC execs hated her and got her more money to complete the first LP and for more publicity and he got Jellybean on board who found Holiday. He also introduced her to Freddy DeMann, she had asked for MJ's manager and Michael made it happen. I am sure Seymour was doing stuff at that time too, but it does seem he got more involved and Rosenblatt less involved towards the end of 83 or beginning of 84. 

Yes Seymour believed in her and definitely supported her, but he was a busy man and it was Michael's job to guide M more in the day to day. Seymour would have done some of the big stuff. I have no doubt he trusted his A&R guy Michael who truly believed in her. 

M met Michael before Seymour. It was because of Michael that her demo got to Seymour and she met him in the hospital. 

And my point was Seymour gets all the credit and Rosenblatt gets pretty much none. I definitely was not saying Seymour deserved none of the credit. 

But that's how it works, the head of the label does the business and the A&R (Rosenblatt) most of the artistic stuff. But, again read Stein's book to understand it all. Rosenblatt did not get Jellybean, he got Reggie Lucas but he got him from a Warner in house producers. He thought Madonna should have gone the r&b route, Stein thought she should be more inspired by the english scene and made her go see british bands in concert like English Beat (signed by Sire). And Seymour says in the book that Madonna pretty quick outwitted Rosenblatt and that he felt pretty bad for him but he too let her make her own decisions because he realized she was smarter than them all (his words). And with Rosenblatt there's also personal stuff involved since he got married to Madonna's friend from Uniersity of Michigan and roommate Janice Galloway. In the book Stein also reveals that the Edo Bertoglio/Martin Burgoyne cover for the first album was rejected by Madonna. She asked Rosenblatt to take the bullet for it. She did not like it (and to be fair it looked a lot like Cristina's album covers). The book is a goldmine, it's not just about Sire, there are stories about Prince and other artists from that era.

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1 hour ago, Roland Barthes said:

But that's how it works, the head of the label does the business and the A&R (Rosenblatt) most of the artistic stuff. But, again read Stein's book to understand it all. Rosenblatt did not get Jellybean, he got Reggie Lucas but he got him from a Warner in house producers. He thought Madonna should have gone the r&b route, Stein thought she should be more inspired by the english scene and made her go see british bands in concert like English Beat (signed by Sire). And Seymour says in the book that Madonna pretty quick outwitted Rosenblatt and that he felt pretty bad for him but he too let her make her own decisions because he realized she was smarter than them all (his words). And with Rosenblatt there's also personal stuff involved since he got married to Madonna's friend from Uniersity of Michigan and roommate Janice Galloway. In the book Stein also reveals that the Edo Bertoglio/Martin Burgoyne cover for the first album was rejected by Madonna. She asked Rosenblatt to take the bullet for it. She did not like it (and to be fair it looked a lot like Cristina's album covers). The book is a goldmine, it's not just about Sire, there are stories about Prince and other artists from that era.

Well we can agree to disagree. Seymour had his say and it is one side of the story, which has had different details depending on which interview you read of his. Yes that is the job of the A&R guy, just like Seymour was doing his job. Both deserve credit. Just like Madonna does, just like Stephen Bray does. Just like Mark Kamins does.

I am saying of all the people involved he basically gets no credit at all and regardless of the one sided story Stein tells, looking through mutliple interviews throughout M's career, Stein was not the be all and end all of her career. A memoir is that persons view of how things happened, not the absolute truth of what happened.

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2 hours ago, Pootz333 said:

Since we're on this topic, here is something that has always baffled me....

Warner notoriously wanted "Amazing" as a single over "Impressive Instant". They also apparently were responsible for scrapping M's plans to work with The Pet Shop Boys, in order to work with producers to create an album that sounded 5 years late.

This is the same Warner that heard the "American Life" album and had no issues with it??? They didn't have a problem with the first single choice? That video? That one of their most successful artists, during one of the greatest comebacks and runs in pop history, was putting out a record full of songs that were guaranteed not to be played on American radio??? Even without the war themed video and photoshoot, even a track like "Nothing Fails" wouldn't have made a dent at radio. It was a weird time in the US music scene.

I've always loved AL. But it's always confused the hell out of me that Warner tried to go a super commercial route many times, except for the AL era.

It was reported in the press (tabloid) at the time that she had to redo some songs from AL as WB weren’t happy with it, I always assumed that was one of the reasons it seemed to take so long for the recording sessions to wrap but it could be untrue also.

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5 hours ago, Pootz333 said:

Since we're on this topic, here is something that has always baffled me....

Warner notoriously wanted "Amazing" as a single over "Impressive Instant". They also apparently were responsible for scrapping M's plans to work with The Pet Shop Boys, in order to work with producers to create an album that sounded 5 years late.

This is the same Warner that heard the "American Life" album and had no issues with it??? They didn't have a problem with the first single choice? That video? That one of their most successful artists, during one of the greatest comebacks and runs in pop history, was putting out a record full of songs that were guaranteed not to be played on American radio??? Even without the war themed video and photoshoot, even a track like "Nothing Fails" wouldn't have made a dent at radio. It was a weird time in the US music scene.

I've always loved AL. But it's always confused the hell out of me that Warner tried to go a super commercial route many times, except for the AL era.

It's easy to say now cause we know what happened but in the end, "American Life" followed the sound of the previous album and that was huge for Madonna, and also the "Die Another Day" single, another International hit for her. After "Music", getting Mirwais on board again seemed a safe bet for Warner, I guess.

I remember at the time, "Die Another Day" and "American Life" (the single) seemed just the logical evolution after the "Music" album. Of course then the war video happened and everything went to hell.

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6 hours ago, me1981 said:

Well we can agree to disagree. Seymour had his say and it is one side of the story, which has had different details depending on which interview you read of his. Yes that is the job of the A&R guy, just like Seymour was doing his job. Both deserve credit. Just like Madonna does, just like Stephen Bray does. Just like Mark Kamins does.

I am saying of all the people involved he basically gets no credit at all and regardless of the one sided story Stein tells, looking through mutliple interviews throughout M's career, Stein was not the be all and end all of her career. A memoir is that persons view of how things happened, not the absolute truth of what happened.

Ok, you just believe what you wanna believe and like most people on the internet you can't publicly say "i might i've not been totally right on this one". I get it. It's not a competition though. The thing here is to provide as much informations as possible so people can make up their minds :kissy:. Once again i advise everyone to read Siren Song. But you seem to know more and better than Seymour Stein who did nothing...

BTW, Rosenblatt is very one sided too. Seymour Stein only managed to get the money Warner US did not want to invest in Madonna and only made sure she made her fair share of her hard work. And later, even though she was leaving his label, he helped M & De Mann on the deal they made with Warner to create Maverick. 

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Rosenblatt thought Madonna was the next Olivia Newton-John (Madonna's behind the music). Madonna also played Rosenblatt her demo of Lucky Star and asked him what he thought. He was a great A&R person for her.

Freddy is the one who went toe to toe with Madonna from yelling at her that her career was over after MTV awards to the disagreements we saw in Truth or Dare. He listen to his artist but at the same time he didn't take shit like Caresse , Angela, or Guy has.

Let's not forget that Prince reached out to Madonna during his issue with Warner and she stayed silent, wasn't her battle but odd for someone who is so vocal to have no comment. To me that shows where she was head-wise at that time.

Stephen Bray has also said that the only person Madonna is loyal to is Madonna. Even when she got signed to Sire he had no clue about it until Sire asked how the music programming used on the demos that got her signed. Only at that time did Madonna let him know about the deal.

I think with Liz also leaving/retiring  had a lot to do with Madonna leaving as well. What I do find funny is that her LN deal had her albums released under Interscope, who also had Lady Gaga signed to their label. 

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