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Madame X, Dave Chappelle, ‘Transphobia’ & Cancel Culture


tajybajyboo
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10 minutes ago, New_Boy said:

Thank you!!!  :handsy: Just noted the ridiculing quotation marks in the thread title, so yeah, the person who opened it should fuck themselves, and be ashamed to even be on this forum.

I’m the person who opened this thread. Thank you for your response. I was hoping for a nuanced discussion rather being told to be ashamed and ‘fuck myself’. 
 

For your information I’m gay, mixed race, born Muslim, an immigrant and a vegan. I’m also a huge Madonna fan, which is why I’m on this forum. With exception to my gender identity I could be the poster boy for intersectional identity politics and I am well aware of what bigotry, hate and shame feel like.

I put quotation marks arounds the words ‘transphobia’ because I acknowledge people can have different points of view and I didn’t want to offend anyone. I’m not a trans person and I don’t want to speak on anyone else’s behalf, therefore I think it would be far more appropriate to listen to the words of someone who is trans to appreciate the nuances of their opinion. I would urge you to watch the video below before making any further assumptions about me, ‘the trans community’ or Dave Chappelle. My only intention here today was to engage in thoughtful and meaningful discussion about Madonna and freedom of speech. I am not here to offend anyone. 

 

 

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PaperFaces

Making a joke about something does not necessarily reveal your true feelings about it. Sometimes we need to laugh at something in order to process what it all means. It is intellectually, morally and socially irresponsible to reduce someone to a thought they might have, a feeling they express or a statement they make.  We are more than just those things. And it is important to have all of these in order to discuss  and debate.  It is through discussion and debate that we find progress.

Roland Barthes

Chappelle is a transphobic asshole and so is anyone who supports and defends him. Now if you can't live with being called transphobic then don't be. As for Madonna she should have included Lil Nas X instead of Chappelle whom no one cares about outside of the US and his coming out as terf is not his first nasty comment about the lgbt community. So if Madonna gets in hot water for standing by this moron it will be deserved because it makes her look like a hypocrite. She benefited from the trans co

robder

Great question....and there are no shoulds. ...but this is a community that needs allies. Plus the exclusionary conversations around trans people (privileged people discussing what rights you should have in the next room etc) mirror the 90s era of homophobia almost exactly. DC shouldn't be cancelled - indeed, he hasn't and will probably never be cancelled. Neither have trans people got 'thin skin' as he puts it. The trans narrative is one of survival...you have to be pretty hardco

I don't care what non trans people think about this. Only the opinion of trans people matters to me on this subject. Just like only the opinion of people directly concerned about something matters to me. As a gay man i've too often heard straight people telling me i was offended by something absolutely homophobic they thought wasn't. 3 of my best friends are trans and one is a huge Madonna fan. We talked about it and even though she's disappointed in Netflix and a bit puzzled by Madonna's attitude she still loves the film. But yes, all 3 of them think Chappelle is transphobic and are hurt by what he says. He's also only in the film because at the time the tour was shot, Guy Oseary was still managing Maverick PR and Chappelle (just like Amy Schumer) was managed by him. Another one of Guy O.  bad plugging of his own business in Madonna's work... 

Does she need to remove him ? Too late. I did not watch that part, i fast forwarded it. I don't believe in cancel culture however i believe in calling a c*** when i see one. Free speech is saying whatever you want as long as it complies with the law. Here in France at least, homophobic, transphobic or racist speech is punished by the law. I believe it is not how it works in the US. It did not erase homophobia, transphobia or racism though, it's VERY there, maybe more than ever right now. 

But i would like people to put themself in other people's shoes before saying something is not offensive to a particular group of people when they are not concerned by the offense or trying to minimise it. Hate speech is not humour. Hate speech is hate speech. If Chappelle was that big macho boss he so wants to be he wouldn't attack a group that is marginalized and killed, daily, by numbers for who they are, he would attack mega billionaires who are ruining the planet. People in power and of power.  Making fun of fragile and marginalized people just show how weak and untalented you are because it's easy, lazy and very coward. It's also effing dated. I wonder why we, as humans, feel empowered when we put down people who are more fragile than us or more discriminated against than we are. Is it some power game we are forced to get into so to not be at the bottom line ? There's not just one way to exist and be in this life. Hate is not an opinion, it's just hate. 

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10 minutes ago, tajybajyboo said:

For your information I’m gay, mixed race, born Muslim, an immigrant and a vegan. I’m also a huge Madonna fan, which is why I’m on this forum. With exception to my gender identity I could be the poster boy for intersectional identity politics and I am well aware of what bigotry, hate and shame feel like.

Very sorry for any pain your lived experiences have given you, but also,

1 hour ago, New_Boy said:

You can't use your oppression to oppress others, that's not how it works.

 

Blaire White is a also bad example here. She is a known conservative whose whole channel is basically there to posit herself as a "good, acceptable trans person" compared to people who don't have her looks and privilege. I can spend my time finding voices of many, many trans people who've been hurt by this, but what you've posted is basically the "I have black friends, I can't be racist" defense. Or specifically, "This trans person says this is not transphobic, so it's not". 

Watch this hilarious yet very real takedown of Blaire White, maybe you'll understand my point of view a bit clearer.

 

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It's all about Contrapoints. :)

I'm far too old to give a shit about influencers - but I'm completely hooked on her vids.

I loved her previous analysis of the term, "facts don't care about feelings"...She also navigates conversations around biology really well. Pure brilliance and one of the only reasons to love the digital age. :hearteyes:

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I cannot understand why Madonna chose Dave Chappelle to be included in the final version of the concert film. Of all her guests during the concert, why him? I am not sure if this would fit the timeline and the sequence of events but I thought that maybe she was aware of his transphobia and wanted to give him a chance to redeem himself? After all, it is very contradictory for him to appear in the Madame X Tour making a speech about how every human being is where it is supposed to be, having a black trans lives matter and the pride flag later on the concert while he is making transphobic comments in his own show. 

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3 minutes ago, thiagosb said:

I cannot understand why Madonna chose Dave Chappelle to be included in the final version of the concert film. Of all her guests during the concert, why him? I am not sure if this would fit the timeline and the sequence of events but I thought that maybe she was aware of his transphobia and wanted to give him a chance to redeem himself? After all, it is very contradictory for him to appear in the Madame X Tour making a speech about how every human being is where it is supposed to be, having a black trans lives matter and the pride flag later on the concert while he is making transphobic comments in his own show. 

But thats EXACTLY why things like that need to be kept in the show. But again, i dont think he is transphobic. I think he is a much more empathetic and vulnerable human being that this is making him out to be.

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2 minutes ago, PaperFaces said:

But thats EXACTLY why things like that need to be kept in the show. But again, i dont think he is transphobic. I think he is a much more empathetic and vulnerable human being that this is making him out to be.

Indeed. I see your point. It makes sense. 

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1 hour ago, PaperFaces said:

EVERYONE says stupid shit at some point. 

Ive seen many comedians make gay jokes and i can still laugh at it. It's just that: a joke. If there is no vile intent, if i assume the best in someone, and i really take the time to go beneath the surface, then i can recognize humour. 

I watched what he said: i dont believe he is transphobic.

Clearly you didn’t watch the comment since the basis of your comment are very ignorant and misinformed.

It wasn’t a joke or part of a comedic routine. It was made as a serious statement.
It’s not like a comedian making a gay joke but seriously taking an anti-gay stance.

And yes everyone is entitled to their opinions. But public personas have to be responsible about the messages they put out there. Since they’re opinion makers. 
I assume Madonna fans should be aware of this by now

 

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16 minutes ago, thiagosb said:

I cannot understand why Madonna chose Dave Chappelle to be included in the final version of the concert film. 

I suspect this was prior to hearing this specific wave of terf comments.

Plus he's quite sycophantic and evangelical about Madonna in the cut - she probably loved that!

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13 minutes ago, PaperFaces said:

But again, i dont think he is transphobic.

Nonsense.

Again - levelling transphobia at someone doesn't have to mean they're a malevolent human.

It just means that in his island universe of opinion, Chapelle doesn't feel trans rights are human rights. Terf isn't an insult either - it's just a literal translation of a type of modern feminism that excludes the trans identity.

Vulnerability and empathy are entirely separate traits that can coexist. They don't serve to invalidate this claim.

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25 minutes ago, New_Boy said:

 

Very sorry for any pain your lived experiences have given you, but also,

 

Blaire White is a also bad example here. She is a known conservative whose whole channel is basically there to posit herself as a "good, acceptable trans person" compared to people who don't have her looks and privilege. I can spend my time finding voices of many, many trans people who've been hurt by this, but what you've posted is basically the "I have black friends, I can't be racist" defense. Or specifically, "This trans person says this is not transphobic, so it's not". 

Watch this hilarious yet very real takedown of Blaire White, maybe you'll understand my point of view a bit clearer.

 

Okay, I watched it.

It was quite funny and poignant. I understand the message ContraPoints is making, but I can also acknowledge Blaire White’s point of view. I’m not trans and it’s definitely not my place to say either one is right or wrong. They’re both entitled to their opinion and clearly there is difference of opinion amongst trans people.
 

Likewise, gay people can disagree with one another. Black people can disagree with each other. Madonna fans can disagree with one another! As proven here today, just because you exist within the same social demographic group doesn’t mean you have the same lived experiences or opinions.

To be clear, I’m not ‘using my oppression to oppress others’. I’m not looking for sympathy either. I only stated my identity for you to understand that I’m not some ignorant person who has no history, empathy or understanding of what bigotry and hate is. I get it. I know how it feels and I’m not unsympathetic  to others who experience it beyond me.

But I also understand the importance of freedom of speech, debate, discussion and acknowledging it’s possible to agree to disagree, without being aggressive or disrespectful.

You attacked me when I was trying to engage in a polite and meaningful discussion about Madonna, which has now gone off-topic. With that said, and having read through the comments, there’s clearly a range of opinions, which is making us think and discuss these issues, so for that reason, I’m glad Madonna included Chappelle in the concert special. Artists are here to disturb the peace and it has definitely been disturbed today! 
 

Thank you for responding to the thread. I’ll now leave you in… peace!

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1 minute ago, New_Boy said:

To show how much I'm willing to engage with this topic, I've torrented the Special, not giving this man a legal stream, and I'll condense my thoughts after seeing it. Cheers!

I haven't watched it yet either, but I do know he had a transphobic joke in one of his other specials and it made sense in context with the whole show. So it very well could be the case here as well. 

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and now I watched it... out of fear it would be taken down before I could see it. 

I'm not trans so I won't speak for them, but I am white, and I am gay... two other groups he obliterates with his jokes and I can tell you that if people have a problem with what he is saying, they're not listening. and that's exactly what he says in the show. If anything, I saw so many parallels to the Madame X show that I can't begin to name them, but instead of wrapped in electronic, Portuguese music they are wrapped in boundary pushing comedy. He knows where the lines are and he knows exactly what he is doing, just as Madonna did when she danced in front of burning crosses in 1989. The problem is the way people take it at face value. They don't delve deeper. Dave Chappell is a humanist and doesn't hate any group of people. Just as Madonna wasn't promoting the KKK in her Like a Prayer video, mind you this is just one example in a whole 40 year career of button pushing. I could speak on this for pages, but I really don't care. Dave Chappell is one of the greatest comedians ever, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If some people can't see the humor in what he says, fine. But we probably won't see eye to eye on much, so I can't see myself wasting time trying to explain it or defend him. 

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7 minutes ago, RUADJAI said:

and now I watched it... out of fear it would be taken down before I could see it. 

I'm not trans so I won't speak for them, but I am white, and I am gay... two other groups he obliterates with his jokes and I can tell you that if people have a problem with what he is saying, they're not listening. and that's exactly what he says in the show. If anything, I saw so many parallels to the Madame X show that I can't begin to name them, but instead of wrapped in electronic, Portuguese music they are wrapped in boundary pushing comedy. He knows where the lines are and he knows exactly what he is doing, just as Madonna did when she danced in front of burning crosses in 1989. The problem is the way people take it at face value. They don't delve deeper. Dave Chappell is a humanist and doesn't hate any group of people. Just as Madonna wasn't promoting the KKK in her Like a Prayer video, mind you this is just one example in a whole 40 year career of button pushing. I could speak on this for pages, but I really don't care. Dave Chappell is one of the greatest comedians ever, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If some people can't see the humor in what he says, fine. But we probably won't see eye to eye on much, so I can't see myself wasting time trying to explain it or defend him. 

I completely agree. I also accept some people may not understand his intentions and if even if they did, they may still be offended by the provocative way he delivers his message. In that respect, I think he and Madonna are very aligned. I can’t count the number of times she has been misquoted or prejudged out of context. I assume that’s the reason why she included him in the concert film.

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6 hours ago, PaperFaces said:

Making a joke about something does not necessarily reveal your true feelings about it.

Wait. Wasn't this the purpose of the BLM debacle last year?

Certain remarks, thoughts, jokes etc. are NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE today and must be enlightened.

Would it be ok if straight people kept making THE SAME AMOUNT of jokes about living with HIV they did in the past?

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😴

Definitely not gonna read the whole thread because I couldn't care less for this moron.

As always in life, no one is responsible for their friends behaviour.

Don't try and stir shit on M because she featured him on Madame X. The sequence was recorded a year and a half ago, long before his nasty show was released on Netflix.

His style was always provocative, as hers, so I guess I see why they appreciate each other. He pushed boundaries, and in the end, as the cis-het man he is, he went too far because that's what cis-het men do.

 

Give M a fucking break, she doesn't need to prove her support to LGTBQ+ communities and people. 

 

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11 minutes ago, artlover said:

Wait. Wasn't this the purpose of the BLM debacle last year?

Certain remarks, thoughts, jokes etc. are NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE today and must be enlightened.

Would it be ok if straight people kept making THE SAME AMOUNT of jokes about living with HIV they did in the past?

Are you talking about to Da Baby’s HIV comments? I think there’s quite a big difference between Chappelle’s brand of comedy and Da Baby’s rant. A lot of people clearly understand the empathetic intentions of Chappelle’s performance, even if his message is delivered in a provocative way.

Conversely, Da Baby’s HIV speech was so bizarrely ignorant, offensive, out of touch, and impossible to justify. He wasn’t making a joke or trying to breakdown misconceptions through comedy. He just genuinely thought gay people living with HIV are disgusting. It was said without any irony and he assumed his audience would agree with him.

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3 minutes ago, PlayPause said:

😴

Definitely not gonna read the whole thread because I couldn't care less for this moron.

As always in life, no one is  responsible for their friends behaviour.

Don't try and stir shit on M because she featured him on Madame X. The sequence was recorded a year ago, long before his nasty show was released on Netflix.

His style was always provocative, as hers, so I guess I see why they appreciate each other. He pushed boundaries, and in the end, as the cis-het-man he is, he went too far because that's what cis-het-men do.

 

Give M a fucking break, she doesn't need to prove her support to LGTBQ+ communities and people. 

 

I think you should read through the thread. If you do, you’d quickly realise the controversy surrounding Chappelle and trans people has existed long before he spoke at the L.A Madame X show, and of course Madonna would have been aware of it.

No one is stirring shit about M, I only asked out of genuine curiosity what people thought about his inclusion in the concert film, given his recent controversy.

Have you even seen the Chappelle show in question on Netflix? If you haven’t, I’d suggest watching it in it’s entirety before drawing conclusions about him. Based on what you’ve written, it sounds like you’ve already formed an opinion, without even giving him the opportunity to hear what he has to to say.

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I know enough about him, I always thought he was an awfully boring comedian. I have seen the most outrageous bits of the show and they confirm what I previously thought of him. A cringey macho. Derogatory jokes hardly make me laugh.

His inclusion on MXT is an unfortunate decision, period. 

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41 minutes ago, tajybajyboo said:

Are you talking about to Da Baby’s HIV comments? I think there’s quite a big difference between Chappelle’s brand of comedy and Da Baby’s rant. A lot of people clearly understand the empathetic intentions of Chappelle’s performance, even if his message is delivered in a provocative way.

Conversely, Da Baby’s HIV speech was so bizarrely ignorant, offensive, out of touch, and impossible to justify. He wasn’t making a joke or trying to breakdown misconceptions through comedy. He just genuinely thought gay people living with HIV are disgusting. It was said without any irony and he assumed his audience would agree with him.

OMG I’d never heard of DaBaby until he was featured on Levitating…..the guy was an asshole before his disgusting remarks about HIV, he shot dead a guy he thought was robbing him in a Walmart……..and Dua Lipa wants him to feature?!???

IMO if M should be removing anyone it should be (convicted rapist) Mike Tyson, why is he a feature???? Seriously don’t get it

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1 minute ago, PlayPause said:

I know enough about him, I always thought he was an awfully boring comedian. I have seen the most outrageous bits of the show and they confirm what I previously thought of him. A cringey macho. Derogatory jokes hardly make me laugh.

 

Okay, I don’t want to antagonise you. All I’d say is, as a Madonna fan I can think back on countless examples of people accusing her of being a whore, a witch, a child snatcher, a racist, the devil… all because they judged a short video clip or saw a photo in a magazine. Perhaps if they’d give her the time of day, listened, opened their hearts and minds, they would have reached a very different conclusion. 
 

Madonna clearly values what Chappelle had to say. I’m not suggesting we all have to agree with everything she thinks; but I would have thought his inclusion in the Madame X film would be enough of a reason to try and understand him a little bit better. I genuinely think you might be surprised if you did watch the entirety of his show.

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