The reason for the (apparently) slower sales of Like a Prayer?

[ramonjurado 28]

8 minutes ago, Prayer said:

True, but while "Ray Of Light" benefited from the huge CD market in 1998 and 1999, it also had Napster around the corner... in 2000. Without that huge change in the industry she probably had sold some more millions just in back catalog sales in the next few years? "Music" was another blockbuster album and it already went down to 11M, so...

I was checking this list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_albums_by_women

Impressive. For reference, Madonna albums:

"The Immaculate Collection": 30M

"True Blue": 25M

"Like A Virgin": 21M

"Ray Of Light": 16M

"Like A Prayer": 15M

"Music": 11M

"Madonna": 10M

"Something To Remember": 10M -> what? Didn't know that

"Confessions On A Dance Floor": 10M

True Blude definitely needs to be respected more and not be trashed by the fans.

[Drownedboy 1,657]

I have a soft spor on STR, it was a great idea, it´s such a classy album, the new tracks are gorgeous and her newly trained vocals are amazing. And that photo session! And yes, as times went by, it become a blockbuster. 

 

You´ll see was such a gem underated by Madonna herself.

I also think Music could have sold more with a better singles campaing, cause after Don´t tell me everything could have been done much much better. By the time of Music, the free download thing was already hurting.

[Sultrysully 2,865]

16 hours ago, Prayer said:

True, but while "Ray Of Light" benefited from the huge CD market in 1998 and 1999, it also had Napster around the corner... in 2000. Without that huge change in the industry she probably had sold some more millions just in back catalog sales in the next few years? "Music" was another blockbuster album and it already went down to 11M, so...

I was checking this list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_albums_by_women

Impressive. For reference, Madonna albums:

"The Immaculate Collection": 30M

"True Blue": 25M

"Like A Virgin": 21M

"Ray Of Light": 16M

"Like A Prayer": 15M

"Music": 11M

"Madonna": 10M

"Something To Remember": 10M -> what? Didn't know that

"Confessions On A Dance Floor": 10M

When will Warner fix these counts?  I am so curious to know the updated totals.  Madonna stated on TV (Fallon) that her count is over 400 million.  

[Husam Elzien 656]

 

On 3/8/2023 at 4:48 PM, steady75 said:

 

One single before the album dropped: True Blue had beniffited from having both Live To Tell & Papa Dont preach out when the album dropped. 

The sporadic singles run after Cherish: also Express Yourself didn't really seem to do the numbers I expected it to.  Even as a hardcore fan I could not work out what was going on. Oh Father was on Americas Top Ten Countdown that was screened here but not released and then suddenly the Animated and highly niche Dear Jessie was released, Then no Keep It Together. It was scatty as hell and whiplash inducing. Like A Prayer album felt abandoned half way and like it had run out of steam. I hated the album on first listen and i mean hated. I was so upset with her I thought she'd lost it. lol. It was a challenging listen for a 13 year old. I think it's the point where she started to lose a lot of fans too. Compared to her titan singles run and flawless campaign from True Blue.

Suddenly out of nowhere "Vogue": Closely followed by I'm Breathless & The Immaculate Collection.

 

Maybe her and her team were banking on a summer/fall tour to eat up the back half of 1989 and decided not schedule additional promo but then Pepsi pulled out and she did Dick Tracy so they had to scramble so the album sales didn't free-fall and we ended up with Oh Father, Dear Jessie and Keep It Together as singles. Also I feel like they knew Oh Father was too risky internationally to release as a physical single. 

Also, maybe the public decided to abandon the album because it looked like Madonna abandoned it. Not even three months after the release and Madonna abandoned the euro chic, natural brunette look she had originally adopted and went back to blond and old Hollywood glamour for Dick Tracy. Didn't help that she essentially abandoned it again by allowing Vogue to be released and cannibalize the sales of a LAP single. The tour was probably the only thing keeping LAP on the charts because that album disappeared almost Immediately following the North American leg

 

[steady75 9,566]

Well yes the Like A Prayer tour was scrapped and Warner obviously knew the singles run was looking more challenging as they asked for a new song to B side Keep It Together and we all now how that turned out. 

[Ian 2,251]

On 3/8/2023 at 5:16 PM, Aiwa08 said:

Don't forget something important. Many classic fans (specially macho men) started to hate Madonna with "Like A Prayer" (too gay friendly for them?)

didn't you mean Vogue instead of LAP? I remember a lot of straight men actually liked and praised LAP and it was the first time I heard  most of the positive comments were around her music and the album's production , ("Till Death DUP" was huge among audiophiles) not so much about the controversy which seemed to have angered only male and female karens -and religious fanatics-  .

Then all of that changed with Vogue , a lot of straight (men) ran the opposite way when it became huge and she was labeled "too gay friendly" , this when being attached to anything gay was intensely looked down on

about LAP's sales, yeah I think the slower sales in time were due to how promo lasted only for barely a year and then she (and Warner) moved on very quickly onto many other projects

[Ian 2,251]

On 3/10/2023 at 9:46 AM, Sultrysully said:

When will Warner fix these counts?  I am so curious to know the updated totals.  Madonna stated on TV (Fallon) that her count is over 400 million.  

agreed, a lot of those figures are very dated , TIC's sales were already at over 30 M in the early 2000s and the thing is still selling , ROL should be way over 16M , and basically most of her catalog for that matter

[Aiwa08 16,190]

8 minutes ago, Ian said:

didn't you mean Vogue instead of LAP? I remember a lot of straight men actually liked and praised LAP and it was the first time I heard  most of the positive comments were around her music and the album's production , ("Till Death DUP" was huge among audiophiles) not so much about the controversy which seemed to have angered only male and female karens -and religious fanatics-  .

That all of that changed with Vogue , a lot of straight (men) ran the opposite way when it became huge and she was labeled "too gay friendly" , this when being attached to anything gay was intensely looked down on

about LAP's sales, yeah I think the slower sales in time were due to how promo lasted only for barely a year and then she (and Warner) moved on very quickly to many other projects

No. Many classic "macho-fans" started to run away with Express Yourself single. Of course, Vogue and "Truth or Dare" cemented their "TOO GAY FRIENDLY" mantra. With "Justify My Love" and "Erotica" they started to hate her. 

[Ian 2,251]

14 minutes ago, Aiwa08 said:

No. Many classic "macho-fans" started to run away with Express Yourself single. Of course, Vogue and "Truth or Dare" cemented their "TOO GAY FRIENDLY" mantra. With "Justify My Love" and "Erotica" they started to hate her. 

hmmm not entirely sure about that, but let's agree to disagree

totally agree on the JML and Erotica tho (also TOD didn't help with that either)

[Aiwa08 16,190]

20 minutes ago, Ian said:

hmmm not entirely sure about that, but let's agree to disagree

totally agree on the JML and Erotica tho (also TOD didn't help with that either)

It's not an opinion, it's my experience. Many straight friends of mine (classic madonna's fans) started to dislike her with Express Yourself. It was the beginning of the end for them.

[Ian 2,251]

31 minutes ago, Aiwa08 said:

It's not an opinion, it's my experience. Many straight friends of mine (classic madonna's fans) started to dislike her with Express Yourself. It was the beginning of the end for them.

what I mentioned was my experience ;  so we just had  different friends /experiences, not a big deal

 

what I get from this is that all of those people we knew were all (homophobic)  a*holes bc they abandoned Madonna

[Donna 16,128]

12 hours ago, Husam Elzien said:

 

Maybe her and her team were banking on a summer/fall tour to eat up the back half of 1989 and decided not schedule additional promo but then Pepsi pulled out and she did Dick Tracy so they had to scramble so the album sales didn't free-fall and we ended up with Oh Father, Dear Jessie and Keep It Together as singles. Also I feel like they knew Oh Father was too risky internationally to release as a physical single. 

Also, maybe the public decided to abandon the album because it looked like Madonna abandoned it. Not even three months after the release and Madonna abandoned the euro chic, natural brunette look she had originally adopted and went back to blond and old Hollywood glamour for Dick Tracy. Didn't help that she essentially abandoned it again by allowing Vogue to be released and cannibalize the sales of a LAP single. The tour was probably the only thing keeping LAP on the charts because that album disappeared almost Immediately following the North American leg

 

No, Madonna and her team had to know she wasn't going to tour in 1989.  She knew she was filming Dick Tracy before LAP was to be released. In her Rolling Stone interview that was conducted in late January, weeks before the film began to shoot, she mentioned that she was soon to dye her hair completely back to blonde.  At that point, she had the blonde strip in her hair.  She also mentions Pepsi sponsoring her in that interview. Not only that, Warren Beatty knew Madonna would be willing to record a soundtrack to the film.  Filming wrapped up in late May, but there were several re-shoots throughout the summer. Meanwhile, she was back in the studio recording the "I'm Breathless" album. 

So I'm sure she knew ahead of time, she wouldn't have a lot of time to promote the album and that's why she signed up with Pepsi.  And I'm sure she knew she wouldn't have been able to start touring plans until the fall.  I think Pepsi initially hoped she would tour in 1989, and possibly Madonna led them to believe so, but by the time she filmed the Pepsi commercial, she was already preparing for role as Breathless Mahoney.  I think she knew she wouldn't be able to tour until the following year.  

Also, I don't think Madonna or the public "abandoned" the album.  **(See below where I talk about her still having the biggest selling album from that year). Madonna never did typical promotion for her last two studio albums.  Her previous albums, relied mostly on MTV exposure and the fact radio was ready to play anything from her.  Pepsi was to be her biggest promoter, even though they bailed.  She even stated in the Rolling Stone interview (two months prior to the album's release) that Pepsi would give her album far more exposure than any record company.  And it did, even though Pepsi pulled out.  Not only that, she had many magazine spreads for that year.  She also, released three more videos from that album that year.  She went on to perform the VMA awards.  That's already far more promotion than she personally did with True Blue. 

Furthermore, Disney already projected a summer '90 release date for Dick Tracy by the time the film went into production.  I'm sure she knew once she started making plans to tour at the end of '89 that it would not only be promoting LAP, but I'm Breathless as well. In fact, it was her idea to include the film into her Blonde Ambition Tour.

The point I'm making is Madonna knew she wasn't going to have time to do traditional promoting of LAP months before the album was even released.  Therefore, she used Pepsi as a promotional tool to fill that gap.  While I wouldn't say it didn't hurt album sales, but it surely helped sell a lot of copies of the lead single. 

**Also, (and here is the most important part) we have to keep in mind, while LAP only sold 15 million copies, no one else that year except Bobby Brown's "Don't Be Cruel" sold more copies than her initially.  He had a six month head start and it wasn't until 1989 that his album started to fly off record shelves. At the end of the day, she still sold more copies than him because as of now, Bobby Brown only shows certifications of selling 12 million copies of that album.  So in reality she still had the top selling album in 1989, it's just sales in general were low for everyone.

 

[like a light 60]

It's not hard to understand if you see the facts:  LAP  had undoubtely the best mediatic treatment in her career, massive airplay, the first return after a silence period,  already a legend but still new,  scandalous impact videos that only helped to sell,  it had everything to sell more than ever...

but it's a less commercial music with difficult, not catchy melodies, and even a very weak sound technically. Hard to listen for many. 

If it had Like a virgin and True blue commerciality, with that media support and all that things it would have sold like that or more, easily,  so it's her biggest flop, speaking of musical appeal, strange as it may seem for some. The biggest succes is to sell so much with such bad mediatic conditions she has lately. That is the real big thing.

[Donna 16,128]

7 minutes ago, like a light said:

It's not hard to understand if you see the facts:  LAP  had undoubtely the best mediatic treatment in her career, massive airplay, the first return after a silence period,  already a legend but still new,  scandalous impact videos that only helped to sell,  it had everything to sell more than ever...

but it's a less commercial music with difficult, not catchy melodies, and even a very weak sound technically. Hard to listen for many. 

If it had Like a virgin and True blue commerciality, with that media support and all that things it would have sold like that or more, easily,  so it's her biggest flop, speaking of musical appeal, strange as it may seem for some. The biggest succes is to sell so much with such bad mediatic conditions she has lately. That is the real big thing.

There is no "flop" about it.  No other album but Bobby Brown's "Don't Be Cruel" sold more that year (initially). It's just some are comparing astronomical sales from her previous albums to a year where no other artist was selling anymore either.  Bobby Brown was the only artist who initially sold more copies than her that specific year.  Yet she still outsold him, as "Don't Be Cruel" is only certified at 12 million sales and she's currently at 15 million. 

Also, prior to 1989, the mid 80's was abnormally high when it came to record sales. Madonna and many other artists were selling more records than they ever had at that time.   

[like a light 60]

19 hours ago, tscott said:

There is no "flop" about it.  No other album but Bobby Brown's "Don't Be Cruel" sold more that year (initially). It's just some are comparing astronomical sales from her previous albums to a year where no other artist was selling anymore either.  Bobby Brown was the only artist who initially sold more copies than her that specific year.  Yet she still outsold him, as "Don't Be Cruel" is only certified at 12 million sales and she's currently at 15 million. 

Also, prior to 1989, the mid 80's was abnormally high when it came to record sales. Madonna and many other artists were selling more records than they ever had at that time.   

 I remark I was talking about a  flop, speaking of musical appeal. 

Of course 12 millions in 89 was great, but the point is she could' ve sold a lot more if the album had been commercial and catchy like the previous ones,  'cause it's the best mediatic moment she ever had.

I think it's evident it was not an album that could attrack general public like Into the groove or Holiday. The first to know it were the Warner people, who were really worried and scared when they heard Like a prayer and Express yourself,  they didn't want that, they knew it was a commercial suicide, but she did what she wanted anyway.   Tough I was a little kid I remember the fans reaction in the first days, and the dissapointment was all around.

Anyway,  good for her for doing what she felt, and good for the ones who care for music and not sales.

[Donna 16,128]

7 hours ago, like a light said:

 I remark I was talking about a  flop, speaking of musical appeal. 

Of course 12 millions in 89 was great, but the point is she could' ve sold a lot more if the album had been commercial and catchy like the previous ones,  'cause it's the best mediatic moment she ever had.

I think it's evident it was not an album that could attrack general public like Into the groove or Holiday. The first to know it were the Warner people, who were really worried and scared when they heard Like a prayer and Express yourself,  they didn't want that, they knew it was a commercial suicide, but she did what she wanted anyway.   Tough I was a little kid I remember the fans reaction in the first days, and the dissapointment was all around.

Anyway,  good for her for doing what she felt, and good for the ones who care for music and not sales.

Sorry, I am not sure what you are talking about?  Both Like A Prayer and Express Yourself were both commercial successes.  Despite the controversy behind LAP song, it was very well received.  It's one of her biggest selling singles behind Vogue and Like A Virgin. The album was also very commercial and "catchy".  Maybe not as pop friendly as True Blue was, but it still was the second biggest selling record in 1989. 

Like mentioned, in general record sales were down for everyone in '89.  Most artists with big selling albums in prior years (such as Madonna) were selling abnormally high volumes back then because in the mid 80's there was a huge economic boom, especially in the U.S.  The music and video business was at its ultimate peak at the time.  Very few have sold that many album in such a short amount of time, then those artists did in the mid 80's.  By '89, we were seeing a decline in the economy and the music business.

[like a light 60]

 

On 3/14/2023 at 9:02 PM, tscott said:

Sorry, I am not sure what you are talking about?  Both Like A Prayer and Express Yourself were both commercial successes.  Despite the controversy behind LAP song, it was very well received.  It's one of her biggest selling singles behind Vogue and Like A Virgin. The album was also very commercial and "catchy".  Maybe not as pop friendly as True Blue was, but it still was the second biggest selling record in 1989. 

Like mentioned, in general record sales were down for everyone in '89.  Most artists with big selling albums in prior years (such as Madonna) were selling abnormally high volumes back then because in the mid 80's there was a huge economic boom, especially in the U.S.  The music and video business was at its ultimate peak at the time.  Very few have sold that many album in such a short amount of time, then those artists did in the mid 80's.  By '89, we were seeing a decline in the economy and the music business.

Very commercial and catchy?   More than 30 years later I'm still  "fighting"  with the melodies of some chorus (Like a prayer, Express, Cherish, Oh father)  and many parts in Love song.  It doesn't happen to me with any other album of hers, I always use to get the melodies without any problem.  And I guess it's the same for many people:  just see how they sing that songs in karaokes or even official covers like Sia's.  No one gets the melodies.

If it was really commercial and catchy would be her best seller, 'cause it was the right time for it. 

[Donna 16,128]

13 minutes ago, like a light said:

 

Very commercial and catchy?   More than 30 years later I'm still  "fighting"  with the melodies of some chorus (Like a prayer, Express, Cherish, Oh father)  and many parts in Love song.  It doesn't happen to me with any other album of hers, I always use to get the melodies without any problem.  And I guess it's the same for many people:  just see how they sing that songs in karaokes or even official covers like Sia's.  No one gets the melodies.

If it was really commercial and catchy would be her best seller, 'cause it was the right time for it. 

So, this is just coming down to your personal opinion.  Though, just because an artist's album isn't their "best seller",  doesn't mean it isn't "catchy".  Also, an album can be very successful without being "catchy".  I don't consider Adele's albums very "catchy", but they were extremely successful. 

Anyway, Madonna's LAP was one of the biggest commercial selling albums of 1989. 

[Drownedboy 1,657]

Like a Prayer was a total success, the single and the album, and the song, apart from a piece of art, is the catchiest thing ever, lol you can´t get that melody and that words out of your mind. Other songs from that album I agree that are darker in some cases and not so commercial (love song anyone?) but on the other side you have Cheris, Dear Jessie..very sweeat and accesible for everybody, so you have a bit of everything there.

 

[like a light 60]

Like a prayer is another album for every fan to enjoy and love, but it was an incredible success and it has the status we all know today because  it had more airplay and propaganda than never ever. In fact, it was that way even before the music was released. It was gonna be a big thing anyway,  that was the feeling even without any music yet.. With some scandals and impact videos , the mediatic noise just grew up and helped,  and if people hear the song all the time in the media, it's obvious they're gonna know it, keep it in their minds, make a big deal of it, and they will even think it's the cathiest thing ever. But Like a prayer and other songs here are very far from being that. I think it's something anyone can see, as long as they know what a catchy melody is.

If Like a prayer is your favourite Madonna album, that brings you great memories,  your dearest and special one,  OK, boys and girls. But if you say it's the catchiest thing ever...   sorry, it's not.

[Prayer 14,281]

26 minutes ago, like a light said:

Like a prayer is another album for every fan to enjoy and love, but it was an incredible success and it has the status we all know today because  it had more airplay and propaganda than never ever. In fact, it was that way even before the music was released. It was gonna be a big thing anyway,  that was the feeling even without any music yet.. With some scandals and impact videos , the mediatic noise just grew up and helped,  and if people hear the song all the time in the media, it's obvious they're gonna know it, keep it in their minds, make a big deal of it, and they will even think it's the cathiest thing ever. But Like a prayer and other songs here are very far from being that. I think it's something anyone can see, as long as they know what a catchy melody is.

If Like a prayer is your favourite Madonna album, that brings you great memories,  your dearest and special one,  OK, boys and girls. But if you say it's the catchiest thing ever...   sorry, it's not.

It's not blockbuster teen pop the way the "Like A Virgin" and "True Blue" albums were but it's not the most abstract and unmarketable thing ever either.

Except for "Love Song" and "Act Of Contrition" (Prince's heavy mark on both), the rest are pretty much pop music and melodies with more mature themes and lyrics, but that's it. I think the reception at the time had more to do with the competition and the rest of the pop acts doing more a current new jack swing pop style than anything else. The "Like A Prayer" album probably sounded a little bit "dated" on arrival in 1989? But that also made it more timeless in the long term.

(Personal fun fact: I became a fan in 1998 with the "Ray Of Light" album. When I started diving into her old discography, I remember the first three albums sounded suuuuuper 80s and dated to me in 1999/2000, while the "Like A Prayer" album always sounded great from day one).

The holy trinity of singles, "Like A Prayer", "Express Yourself" and "Cherish" are full of hooks and catchy chorus, while I guess there wasn't a reason to think that "Oh Father" wouldn't be a hit, like "Live To Tell" was in 1986, both being moody dark ballads or even "Keep It Together" or "Pray For Spanish Eyes".

I agree the "Like A Prayer" song structure is weird for a pop song, it starts and stops a million times, but that chorus is undeniable.

[BoyToyMark 338]

I feel like the album campaign would've had a bit more longevity if Keep It Together was released as the fourth single with a video and remixes in Nov 89 instead of Oh Father and then Keep It Together. But they we wouldn't have Vogue and so on.

[Pootz333 2,684]

On 3/16/2023 at 9:13 AM, Prayer said:

The "Like A Prayer" album probably sounded a little bit "dated" on arrival in 1989? But that also made it more timeless in the long term.

The original Express Yourself still sounds like something you'd hear in a feel good 80's movie makeover montage to me. Shep's mix took a cute song and made it a legendary anthem. 

The Churchapella of LAP is probably my all time fave because it sounds the most timeless.

[Pootz333 2,684]

TDDUP/ Spanish Eyes/ and yes, even Promise To Try, I think would have been a more successful singles run for her at the time after LAP/EY. 

But I love Oh Father and it's video. And the love performance of KIT made me love it.

Dear Jessie should have had an official freestyle remix. NYC would have ate that up.

[Donna 16,128]

2 hours ago, BoyToyMark said:

I feel like the album campaign would've had a bit more longevity if Keep It Together was released as the fourth single with a video and remixes in Nov 89 instead of Oh Father and then Keep It Together. But they we wouldn't have Vogue and so on.

Or at least, released Keep it Together a little earlier than they did.  The fact is;  Vogue cut off any more success the song could have achieved.  Oh Father seemed like a great "fall/winter" song, so maybe it could have been released slightly earlier as well. 

I'm happy with the single choices and as I said in earlier posts, I think the comparisons of the album's success is unfair since she still had the biggest selling album of 1989.  No one sold more than her that year.  As many of us have mentioned, music sales in the mid 80's were at astronomical highs. By 1989, record sales as a whole seem to have dropped dramatically.