What if Madonna Was Black?

[Independent Thinker 160]

I just came across this brilliant article from MadonnaTribe and I wanted to share it with you guys. It was written in 2008 after Madonna got the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame induction.

 

 

What if Madonna Was Black? 

by Christian Gonzales

 

With the news that Madonna had been nominated for induction into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, and the several different critics who've lambasted her nomination, I wondered to myself: if she were black, would she be getting so much shit? For example, you don't hear a bunch of critics ridiculing the nomination of Donna Summer who was "the queen of Disco" for several years, but yet, Madonna's nomination is being raked through the coals.

 

Fox News, no surprise there of course, even went as far as to encourage the boycott of Rolling Stone magazine because some of their staff happens to be on the nomination committee. Why? Well, as Fox News put it: "There's no stopping Madonna when she wants something. Chances are good she won't bring Steve Bray, Patrick Leonard, William Orbit and all her writers and producers to the stage. They are Madonna." Hmmm...well, if you say so.

 

Michael Jackson, whose career has been shaky at best, continues to be praised within critical circles as a "musical genius". Despite his last successful record dating back to 1991's Dangerous album, he is still regarded as a talented musician among music critics. Yet, Michael Jackson is no different than Madonna in many respects when it comes to his albums. His solo albums have been collaborations between producers and writers, in the same vein as Madonna's. Teddy Riley, Quincy Jones, Dallas Austin, Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis...these are just some of the people who've helped write and produce Michael Jackson's albums. The fact that he collaborates doesn't seem to take away from the "genius" that Michael Jackson is...why should it take away from Madonna's right to be regarded in a similar light? Hell, you don't even have to agree that she's a "musical genius", but to call Madonna's producers the reason why her music is worthy of nomination into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame is pretty unfair.

 

I have this nagging suspicion that if Madonna were black, she would've gotten a hell of a lot more respect and praise at this point in her career than she's already received. Let me explain this in a bit more detail.

 

Madonna has made it no secret she borrows from the musical trends and sounds going on around her. For her debut album, she borrowed a lot of R&B musical trends (listen to "Think of Me", and "Holiday" for perfect examples of how pop and R&B were melded together to form those tracks) which she probably heard blasting from all the boom-boxes on her street. Madonna was living in the heart of the East Village (New York) at the time, where punk, R&B, the early roots of hip-hop/rap, and dance music were all coming together. Like a sponge, she took these sounds, and with the writers and producers she worked with, she helped make them come together for her debut album. Although she isn't credited with any production work on her first album, several songs which have R&B type influences list her as the writer: "Think of Me" and "I Know It" are two prime examples.

 

Because many listeners thought Madonna was black when they first heard her, there was no question regarding her legitimacy to be incorporating the R&B sounds of the era into her pop/mainstream music. She was given freedom to do so because she was assumed to be black. But, when viewers got to see what she looked like via MTV, and discovered her to be a white girl from Detroit, the rules changed. Despite Madonna being raised in the birthplace of Motown, and listening to Motown records as a kid, her freedom to have R&B influenced pop songs was taken away from her. More than likely, this was sensed by both Sire (her record company at the time), and Madonna herself, and for her second album ("Like a Virgin"), the production work took on a more standard pop sound.

 

When Madonna tried to revisit the incorporation of R&B into her pop songs with her 1994 album Bedtime Stories, she was once again criticized for it. Surprisingly enough, it wasn't music critics who did so (the album was well received by most major music publications), but it was the public that criticized her for it. Despite the fact that Babyface and Dallas Austin had been making huge hits for several artists on the Billboard Hot 100 charts for several years, Madonna working with them was seen by the public as "selling out". Why? Well, my guess is because Madonna is white, and she is supposed to be making white music, which basically means she can't be making R&B records. Bedtime Stories was a respectable success, but it would take another four years before Madonna achieved the type of success expected of her studio albums.

 

Even today, with Madonna's confirmed collaborations with Justin Timberlake (who was the epitome of pop at first, but has now become a synthesis of R&B and pop), Timbaland, and Pharell Williams on her new upcoming album---she has received a lot of criticism among her main fan-base. Some say, "she is a white artist...she isn't supposed to be making black music". But, my guess is that if she even had 1% of black blood in her, Madonna wouldn't be so condemned for trying to incorporate R&B/hip-hop music into her pop sound. That 1% would somehow, someway, give her enough freedom as a white artist to be working with producers like Timbaland.

Just look at Nelly Furtado, whose makeup is a combination of different races (which includes some black blood), but is mainly regarded as a white artist. Her first two albums were a combination of pop, folk, and R&B. They were successful albums, while being regarded as pop records. When she released her latest album (Loose), which was very much a fusion of R&B/hip-hop and pop (a huge departure from her first two albums), it was embraced by the public. This time, though, her music wasn't regarded as pop, but as R&B. Madonna, of course, doesn't get the same freedom because there is no chance in hell she has any black blood in her...well, at least to the best of our knowledge.

 

When the public thought Madonna was black, she was allowed to make black music. But, when the public found out she was white, she was no longer allowed to make black music. If Madonna had been black, she would've been praised at this point for being a musical genius, and Fox News wouldn't be dismissing her as the creation of talented producers. Instead, she'd be heralded as the savior of pop culture, since Michael Jackson's star fell off the music scene several years ago. Instead, Madonna continues to be dismissed for her musical talents, and is ridiculed when she tries to adapt her sound to the R&B influences going on within the music scene.

 

Sometimes I think to myself... no wonder Madonna becomes so exhausted with the public at times. Were she a different race, or as some have argued, a different sex completely, she'd have more respect than she'd know what to do with. Ahh well... fuck Fox News, they're delusional, racist, homophobic idiots anyway. They wouldn't know musical talent if it were coming out of their asses.

 

 

---Cristian Gonzales

 

"cristian_nyc" on MadonnaTribe.

 

 

(Source)

 

I agree with the writer's perspective and feel it still applies today. For example, the Prince tribute at the BBMAs. Not only did people criticize the performance itself, but they were pissed that she was even chosen! I don't think she would've gotten attacked for that the way she did if she were a black artist. Not to mention the fact that BET would've kept their traps shut. I also think certain people in the industry and certain people in the public would respect her more as well.

[Headless.Headphones 727]

It would make the bridge in Heartbeat be 10x less embarrassing. 

[NowRadiate 3,331]

The industry has never considered her a real musician and singer, more a dancer/performer, that's it.

I really really dislike the "if she were black, she wouldn't have been treated like this" argument, which is just racist in itself.

Truth is, black musicians get just as much shit as others, if the squad in control is against you.

Great article, wow, a man (probably of color, Mr. Gonzales) advocating for M with a racist argument. So smart.

Way to go, Mtribe.

 

What if people think/thought she is just not a good enough musician?

[kesiak 3,036]

Seriously? It's racist first and foremost. Secondly, it's simply dumb as fuck - if Madonna was a black woman she'd never have accomplished half of what she has simply because she wouldn't have been allowed to. What planet does the guy live on?

[Guest]

She almost was black for Hard Candy.

Wasn't she going to call it "Black Madonna" and even painted herself black for the cover?

[Independent Thinker 160]

So some people here think it's impossible for white people to experience racism and to even suggest they can is racist. I can't say that I'm surprised. 

 

I don't think the writer was denying any hurdles black artists had to face due to their race. If that's what you got out of this article, then I feel sorry for you.

 

The writer actually made several good points that seem to have gone over people's heads. If you actually listened to what he said, used your brain, and didn't put words in his mouth, you wouldn't have shut him down in such a lazy, dismissive way.

[Not Candy 78]

well she could be Beyondonna

 

and that other girl could be Madonné.

 

 

 

and she would be the queen of pop with some more issues to defy

[Melrose95 172]

Seriously? It's racist first and foremost. Secondly, it's simply dumb as fuck - if Madonna was a black woman she'd never have accomplished half of what she has simply because she wouldn't have been allowed to. What planet does the guy live on?

You can't be serious? Look at Michael Jackson who was BLACK and the ONLY pop artist who has accomplished just as much if not MORE than Madonna

 

And again "Blacks aren't allowed to " are there some laws in certain states or something?

[Elazul 250]

Is Christian still active at M Tribe? Haven't been there in many years...

[Melrose95 172]

The blatant racism that Madonna received all over social media for doing her Prince tribute at the Billboard awards was insane to say the least

 

I must have read that "stupid white bitch" a million times on social media .

 

ANY racism is obvious ALWAYS wrong and shouldn't be tolerated, just like how racist rednecks were attacking Beyonce for appearing on the CMA awards.

[kesiak 3,036]

So some people here think it's impossible for white people to experience racism and to even suggest they can is racist. I can't say that I'm surprised. 

 

I don't think the writer was denying any hurdles black artists had to face due to their race. If that's what you got out of this article, then I feel sorry for you.

 

The writer actually made several good points that seem to have gone over people's heads. If you actually listened to what he said, used your brain, and didn't put words in his mouth, you wouldn't have shut him down in such a lazy, dismissive way.

 

If the author of the article used his brain in the first place he wouldn't have written such nonsense. I get that he's coming from a good place and means well but the tone and the assumption of the article are ludicrous and, yes, racist:

 

Just look at Nelly Furtado, whose makeup is a combination of different races (which includes some black blood), but is mainly regarded as a white artist

 

Who in this day and age thinks this way? "Loose" was a huge hit because it was much more commercial than Furtado's previous 2 albums and because she worked with hottest producers around. Had nothing to do with her being "a little bit black"! I mean, I can't even type it without laughing out loud at how preposterous this idea is! 

 

When the public thought Madonna was black, she was allowed to make black music. But, when the public found out she was white, she was no longer allowed to make black music

 

Again, hilarious! For how long was Madonna perceived to be black (due to lack of her photo on the cover of "Everybody")? Like 2 mins? Everyone knew what she looked like before her first album hit the stores. From there on, somehow that poor, discriminated against woman went on to become the biggest-selling female artist of all time. She wasn't "allowed" to make "black" music? What about the gospel, soul and r&b references and influences on Like A Prayer, one of her most critically acclaimed pieces of work? What about the shy, #1 single Justify My Love which lifted its beat from James Brown (via Public Enemy)? I also don't remember anyone criticising Madonna for Bedtime Stories or Hard Candy being too "black" for a white woman to make - if there was criticism it had more to do with the fact Madonna was jumping on a bandwagon working with of-the-moment producers rather than relatively unknown, edgy ones which some people associate her with (that was more obvious in the case of Hard Candy than Bedtime Stories).

 

Also, nobody suggests white people can't experience racism (although that's a whole different debate altogether and another slippery slope) but simply that it's not the case with Madonna. Especially when the reason for her not being treated seriously as an artist is a much simpler and obvious one - she's a woman who used sexuality in a lot of her work and for some people the idea that you can be sexy AND talented is beyond comprehension. 

[kesiak 3,036]

[Fighter 28,798]

If she were black she wouldn't have been as big as she's been in the mainstream world wide, bottom line.

 

I think the criticism shouldn't be so targeted and aggressive, especially with people who mean no harm like Madonna, I'm not for witch-hunts, but it's understandable that some people get upset and reactionary because a lot of the majority is comfortable in ignorance. The "we're all the same, we're all equal, so we shouldn't see race" as a response to minorities calling out issues that are still VERY REAL, is an incredibly superfluous argument. A lot of well-meaning people spew this type of Evolvedâ„¢ rhetorics because they're easy and sound good on the surface. 

 

There's a lot of factors that came into play with people's response to her tribute to Prince. Some sense that mainstream awards shows automatically call white artists to tribute black artists. Some mistakingly thought Prince and M actually had a feud. Some thought she's just not soulful therefore not a good match to tribute Prince. Some thought the set was poor and that not even Stevie Wonder was good in it. It's not any one specific thing in my opinion.

 

--

 

When it comes to her music, R&B is not something she's generally known to do as successfully as other genres she's done, and we all know this. Especially for newer albums. Of course a lot of people no matter the race love her R&B infused albums. When it feels right, it's right.

 

We also have to understand that some of the attitude towards Madonna as an artist comes from her not educating the public about her music and talent. She's generally judged at face value and most people associate her with commercial Pop singles which a lot of people look down upon.

 

I've known people who have dismissed her talent until they took time to listen to her albums properly, you honestly can't blame people for not knowing every detail about her music and career. There hasn't been a good in-depth retrospective and we are over 30 years into her career. It's very easy to have misguided opinions about someone as visible as her from bits and pieces of information.

[Fighter 28,798]

Reducing the whole thing to "Madonna suffered racism" is incredibly dismissive of the MUCH bigger picture. I do feel bad for her, and I will defend her ALWAYS when she's being targeted but if we're gonna discuss real things, let's make real arguments.

 

If you wanna believe the majority can be racially victimised, ok, fair enough I suppose, but that type of racism would never be anywhere near the calibre of the racism suffered by minorities. Which is mostly about constant microaggressions at all levels of society and culture on a daily basis from the moment of birth, which the majority does not experience. 

[Fighter 28,798]

Especially when the reason for her not being treated seriously as an artist is a much simpler and obvious one - she's a woman who used sexuality in a lot of her work and for some people the idea that you can be sexy AND talented is beyond comprehension. 

 

 

This also tbh, misogyny has played a big part too.

[Melrose95 172]

Reducing the whole thing to "Madonna suffered racism" is incredibly dismissive of the MUCH bigger picture. I do feel bad for her, and I will defend her ALWAYS when she's being targeted but if we're gonna discuss real things, let's make real arguments.

 

If you wanna believe the majority can be racially victimised, ok, fair enough I suppose, but that type of racism would never be anywhere near the calibre of the racism suffered by minorities. Which is mostly about constant microaggressions at all levels of society and culture on a daily basis from the moment of birth, which the majority does not experience.

So I guess Michael Jackson being as big as he was in the 80s no less was just a mass delusion?

[Fighter 28,798]

So I guess Michael Jackson being as big as he was in the 80s no less was just a mass delusion?

 

No, it was a huge exception. There's a reason why he is credited with breaking so many barriers. He was one in a trillion. It helps that the world saw him grow up since he was a cute kid making him much more appealing, but that doesn't mean he didn't have it hard because of his race. 

[BringUrLUV 1,108]

The industry has never considered her a real musician and singer, more a dancer/performer, that's it.

I really really dislike the "if she were black, she wouldn't have been treated like this" argument, which is just racist in itself.

Truth is, black musicians get just as much shit as others, if the squad in control is against you.

Great article, wow, a man (probably of color, Mr. Gonzales) advocating for M with a racist argument. So smart.

Way to go, Mtribe.

 

What if people think/thought she is just not a good enough musician?

 

agree with what you said EXCEPT that I don't see how its racist in itself.  please explain.

[NowRadiate 3,331]

agree with what you said EXCEPT that I don't see how its racist in itself.  please explain.

 

the subsequent sentence in my post explains it, i thought.

to say anybody is/was exposed to more criticism for being introduced in the hall of fame because of being white, and not black, is a racist statement to me. it segregates and puts the whole distinction between black and white skin in an equation that doesn't add up.

if madonna was black, people would have not complained about her being introduced in the hall of fame? please.

saying donna summer should have been treated the same? donna summer was considered a better singer. i think it has absolutely nothing to do with who is black or white.

mixing the subject of race with criticism against madonna does not make any sense to me.

 

were black people unhappy madonna got to do the prince tribute? yes, some of them, for sure. hell, many. and they were jealous. and perhaps even racist in this context.

but there is absolutely no other musician with the status of a legend that could hold a candle to prince, madonna or michael jackson, so it was only right to have madonna do the tribute.

 

but the hall of fame argument and nagging that there would have been no criticism on her if she were black, is nonsense. and it is racist because it basically says "blacks get treated so much better when it's about nominations like these". bullshit. just because we love madonna, we shouldn't forget the truth. white musicians have it much easier in the industry, especially in the mainstream industry.

[NowRadiate 3,331]

If you actually (...)used your brain, and didn't put words in his mouth, you wouldn't have shut him down in such a lazy, dismissive way.

 

so people who disagree with you or the argument in this article do not use their brains and put words in his mouth? nice.

nobody was attacking you personally, there is no need to lash out by saying "use your brain" just because you're not being agreed with.

[Melrose95 172]

[Mauro 44]

We would have gotten Black Madonna instead of Stale Candy. Great music, shit title. At least she didn't release Human Nature in the 2000s or today or she wouldn't have done the cornrows look.