Very honestly, has Taylor Swift surpassed Madonna all-around?

[A. A. Aardvark 5,103]

33 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Damn so many out of touch people, it doesn't surprise me. Ive said for years that madonna fans are no longer connected to the zeitgeist and the zeitgeist has no interest in madonna. If you can't name a song other than Shake it Off you're either too old or have been living under a rock. It's giving me "madonna sucks now despite me not listening to any of her albums since Immaculate Collection". I've never owned a Taylor album but I'd be pretty stupid to say I only know Shake it Off. What's next, Lady Gaga is a one hit wonder with Poker Face? Britney only had Oops I Did It Again?

so many children with no idea

[scamper 2,039]

17 minutes ago, Alpha said:

So then they live under a rock. 

No... Simply they like other things more and they don't think like people want them to think...

[Alpha 1,940]

5 minutes ago, scamper said:

No... Simply they like other things more and they don't think like people want them to think...

Err talk about not even reading what I said but that's to be expected with out of touch people. It happens. I definitely don't understand Chappell Roan but I'd be pretty damn stupid and out of touch if i acted as if she isnt becoming the hottest thing right now. But yeah people definitely lie so they seem cool as if hating taylor makes them cool or edgy. Definitely pick me energy. I'm not a regular gay, I'm a COOL gay!

[Alpha 1,940]

26 minutes ago, A. A. Aardvark said:

so many children with no idea

Cool story brah. 

[scamper 2,039]

Just now, Alpha said:

Cool story brah. 

Sorry for not living under your rock ;)

[Alpha 1,940]

Just now, scamper said:

Sorry for not living under your rock ;)

I don't have a rock? What a weird reply. You ok?

[madgefan 10,235]

1 hour ago, JustinTimes said:

she's boring as fuck.

This pretty much summarizes my perception on Ms. Swift.

[Aiwa08 18,460]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

 If you can't name a song other than Shake it Off you're either too old or have been living under a rock.

Or simply, her music outside of the USA isn’t as powerful, and you don’t hear her songs unless you have a genuine interest in her.

[ChrisK 8,987]

Short answer yes, or soon will - from a chart perspective and sales, but no, for social impact.

Madonna paved the way for everyone by pushing the boundaries so far in the 90's. 

 

[androiduser 2,882]

I'm in a relationship with a  38 year old guy who's never heard Into the Groove till I played it to him this year. Some people just don't care about pop music and don't pay attention to hits.

[Alpha 1,940]

25 minutes ago, Aiwa08 said:

Or simply, her music outside of the USA isn’t as powerful, and you don’t hear her songs unless you have a genuine interest in her.

That's an easy cop out tho...we dont live in the 90s with regional releases not to mention she's literally in the middle of a huge global tour. I stand by what i said, you either are too old or live under a rock or just lying to seem cool. I mean i guess it would make sense that some people are all of a the above...

[Aiwa08 18,460]

11 minutes ago, Alpha said:

That's an easy cop out tho...we dont live in the 90s with regional releases not to mention she's literally in the middle of a huge global tour. I stand by what i said, you either are too old or live under a rock or just lying to seem cool. I mean i guess it would make sense that some people are all of a the above...

And again: Or simply, her music outside of the USA isn’t as powerful, and you don’t hear her songs unless you have a genuine interest in her. 

For example I hear Dua Lipa all time on the radio, I know her singles but they never play Taylor Swift. So, honey, I don't live under a rock. 

[androiduser 2,882]

19 minutes ago, Alpha said:

That's an easy cop out tho...we dont live in the 90s with regional releases not to mention she's literally in the middle of a huge global tour. I stand by what i said, you either are too old or live under a rock or just lying to seem cool. I mean i guess it would make sense that some people are all of a the above...

before the huge tour, the general consensus on this very site was that she is local and touring numbers are the biggest showcase of relevancy. Now, all of a sudden, when she sold out massive stadiums worldwide - in some places more than any other international star, the argument against her is that "people don't play her songs out loud in the car"

[jack5225 27]

Is this even a real conversation. Madonna IS the Queen of Pop. It is easy for someone like Taylor Swift to stroll through the doors that Madonna, and others, opened for her. She isn't paving any new paths or breaking down any barriers, and therefore, hasn't fought for anyone's rights or speak for those who can't speak out loud. She is safe and non controversial. She seems like a nice girl, but even Taylor knows Madonna is the Queen. I don't think that Taylor Swift has made any moves that will cement her place in pop music history. Just another popular star, one of many. In my opinion...

[NRMX 5,649]

8 hours ago, Arckangel said:

This is not an anti-Taylor Swift thread. And we all know Taylor Swift and Madonna are two different and very unique artists. This is just a question... A very honest, brutally honest question. Has Taylor Swift surpassed Madonna all-around?

1. In terms of social and pop culture impact. First, it was Paula Abdul; she started outselling Madonna in the United States. And for a brief period, Britney Spears seemed to be on her way to supplant Madonna... Until the kiss. And then it was Lady Gaga. And not so long afterwards, Taylor Swift ended up outselling and surpassing Lady Gaga. According to Elton John, Taylor Swift is a great songwriter, great artist, the biggest phenomenon since The Beatles. (And you know he'd never say that about Madonna! He even threw a fit when Madonna beat him for best songwriter at the Golden Globes.)

2. In terms of peak longevity... It seems like Taylor Swift's peak just never ends! From that 2009 VMAs moment (essentially her consecration and initiation) during which Kanye West interrupted her to her many wins last night at the 2024 VMAs, some would argue that her peak is outlasting Madonna's (though Madonna has had many peaks and highlights during her career).

3. In terms of artistry, mainly songwriting. Madonna is the author and producer (usually executive producer and co-song producer) of the vast majority of her catalogue. Madonna is also oftentimes the vocal melodist and/or co-composer. Madonna has some sole songwriting credits, and she plays the guitar. Taylor Swift and Madonna seem equal on those fronts, but many are under the impression Taylor Swift is more of a songwriter (a singer-songwriter as opposed to a singer and songwriter) and more of a guitarist. Heck, Taylor Swift was recently voted the eighth best guitarist of the last two decades!

4. In terms of youth appeal. Taylor Swift is now 34 years old and still appeals a lot to youngsters. At age 34, Madonna was singing "Erotica," "Deeper and Deeper," "Fever," "Bad Girl" & "Rain" and was perhaps seen as more adult contemporary. And as soon as she hit 35 and went on her Girlie Show Tour, some media already started calling her "old" and "grandma."

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Note: I must admit that the fame of Taylor Swift, esp. in this digital era, is unprecedented! I sometimes read that the era of big legendary megastars is over, but this doesn't seem to be the case of Taylor Swift.

dear @Arckangel here’s what I think about you terrible constructed question 

The argument provided is not well-constructed for several reasons:

### 1. **Lack of Clear Structure and Focus**
   - The argument shifts between various artists (Paula Abdul, Britney Spears, Lady Gaga) in the first point, which distracts from the primary comparison between Madonna and Taylor Swift. Instead of a focused analysis of the two, it jumps through unrelated comparisons, which weakens the overall coherence.
   - The argument presents numerous tangential claims, like referencing Elton John’s opinion or a brief mention of media labeling Madonna as “grandma,” which do not directly support or refute the central question.

### 2. **Over-reliance on Subjective Claims**
   - The argument leans heavily on subjective opinions, like Elton John’s praise of Taylor Swift and personal feelings about Madonna’s media coverage. These are opinions, not objective facts. Without solid evidence or data (such as impact metrics, longevity charts, etc.), subjective claims cannot form the backbone of a strong argument.
   - The use of phrases like “some would argue” is vague. To build a stronger case, the argument should cite concrete sources or statistics rather than generalizations.

### 3. **False Equivalencies**
   - The argument seems to compare two entirely different eras of pop culture, which is problematic. The music industry, media landscape, and social dynamics during Madonna’s peak in the '80s and '90s were drastically different from today’s. Directly comparing Madonna’s and Taylor Swift’s trajectories without acknowledging these changes creates a false equivalency. Factors like streaming, social media, and how fame is maintained today were not relevant during Madonna’s earlier career.
   - For example, the comparison between their appeal at age 34 ignores the fact that societal expectations for artists in the ’90s were different from now. The rise of the internet, the evolution of youth culture, and changes in how artists market themselves today are critical differences.

### 4. **Failure to Acknowledge Madonna’s Contextual Impact**
   - The argument overlooks the fact that Madonna was a pioneer in many areas—breaking taboos around sexuality, religion, and gender norms. The social and cultural landscape of Madonna’s time was far more conservative, making her boldness and boundary-pushing far more revolutionary. This context is crucial when evaluating Madonna’s pop culture impact, yet the argument glosses over it.
   - There is also no mention of how Madonna shaped the path for many artists, including Taylor Swift, which would be essential in comparing their legacies.

### 5. **Unbalanced Comparison Criteria**
   - The criteria used to compare the two artists—pop culture impact, peak longevity, artistry, and youth appeal—are valid but imbalanced. Madonna's influence on pop culture cannot be measured only by album sales or popularity metrics, as it extends to fashion, politics, and media representation. Taylor Swift’s dominance is largely musical and social media-based. 
   - The focus on "youth appeal" may not be the best metric when considering artists with long-term influence. Madonna’s relevance is not just about youth but about cultural influence across generations.

### 6. **Unsupported Hyperbolic Statements**
   - The argument states that Taylor Swift is “the biggest phenomenon since The Beatles,” a hyperbolic statement. If such a claim is to be made, it should be backed up with comparative data (sales, chart positions, awards) or expert consensus. Without that, it becomes an exaggerated claim with little supporting evidence.
   - The comparison to Madonna also lacks solid grounding. For example, there is no in-depth examination of Madonna’s accomplishments in terms of specific awards, chart records, or broader influence, which would allow for a fairer and more detailed comparison.

### Conclusion
To improve this argument, it should:
- Focus more clearly on direct comparisons between Madonna and Taylor Swift, avoiding tangential references.
- Include concrete evidence (sales data, cultural influence studies, expert analyses).
- Avoid false equivalencies by considering the different cultural contexts and industries of the two artists.
- Acknowledge the groundbreaking role Madonna played in shaping pop culture and how Taylor Swift benefits from that foundation.
 

[NRMX 5,649]

[VogueMusic 754]

FUCK. NO.

[Alpha 1,940]

29 minutes ago, androiduser said:

before the huge tour, the general consensus on this very site was that she is local and touring numbers are the biggest showcase of relevancy. Now, all of a sudden, when she sold out massive stadiums worldwide - in some places more than any other international star, the argument against her is that "people don't play her songs out loud in the car"

That's why I say madonna fans are SO out of touch. It's not like I'm even posting that her music is amazing or trying to persuade people to like her but I mean facts are facts. She's literally the 4th most streamed artist on spotify at the moment. Whether people like it or not she is huge, she is successful, and YES she has made an impact on both the industry and pop culture. You can love it or lump it.

[androiduser 2,882]

14 minutes ago, Alpha said:

That's why I say madonna fans are SO out of touch. It's not like I'm even posting that her music is amazing or trying to persuade people to like her but I mean facts are facts. She's literally the 4th most streamed artist on spotify at the moment. Whether people like it or not she is huge, she is successful, and YES she has made an impact on both the industry and pop culture. You can love it or lump it.

A lot of Madonna fans resent Taylor because she is the most un-Madonna like female pop star and they can't credit her success to Madonna and Madonna's legacy. The music is unrelated to Madonna, the image is unrelated to Madonna, the attitude is un-related to Madonna, the list goes on... I dunno, maybe she wore a similar color of sequin on one of her costumes, that's where the similarities end.

YES, of course Madonna changed the industry and paved the way for women, but I really don't see Taylor benefiting from this as much as the other pop stars. Not every single singer on the planet owes her career to Madonna. Without Madonna, there would be a Taylor.

[Alpha 1,940]

2 minutes ago, androiduser said:

A lot of Madonna fans resent Taylor because she is the most un-Madonna like female pop star and they can't credit her success to Madonna and Madonna's legacy. The music is unrelated to Madonna, the image is unrelated to Madonna, the attitude is un-related to Madonna, the list goes on... I dunno, maybe she wore a similar color of sequin on one of her costumes, that's where the similarities end.

I don't think it has anything to do with madonna tbh. I think it's more old man yells at cloud or like i said before, people just trying to be cool or edgy as if this is 4chan lol like wow bro you hate taylor and say you dont know her music despite her being insanely popular you must be cool and edgy bro. It's like when people say the Swifties are horrible...like baby girl, do not make yourself look that stupid when we all know little monsters, the beehive, the barbz, etc exist. 

[Tudors 677]

8 hours ago, Arckangel said:

This is not an anti-Taylor Swift thread. _____________

It is now.

[Slickness 17]

No she hasn't, Madonna has the most number 1 singles and top 10 globally for any artist and still has the most number 1 albums for any female artist globally. In Japan alone she has 25 number 1 singles  which is more than any artist on there billboard chart. True Blue is also the best selling album in Brazil, and she's also sold more albums there for any international act, she also still holds the record for attendance with 120,000, in fact Madonna overall attendance is 131, 000 in France and Taylor is 96,000 in Australia. My point is Madonna is globally more successful than her, Taylor wouldn't even be in the top 50  most succesful act in most of these countries including sales. I also believe on the US billboard despite all of Taylor tricks which I think will come back and bite her Madonna is still number 1 for solo act behind the Beatles. But I do blame Madonna team for not  updating  alot of her records/sales in Guinness and they barely promote her legacy.

[Slickness 17]

I would also like to add no one cares about cultural impact at least the younger generation, their all about numbers. One has to ask why did Taylor sign a contract with Iheart to play her songs 24/7 for a week to inflate her sales? She still fell a million short from breaking Adele record who did it naturally since then she released 40 different variants to help sell the record that would've dropped off the charts a longtime ago. She manipulates alot of this and again I think it will catch up with her.

[Alpha 1,940]

18 minutes ago, Slickness said:

I would also like to add no one cares about cultural impact at least the younger generation, their all about numbers. One has to ask why did Taylor sign a contract with Iheart to play her songs 24/7 for a week to inflate her sales? She still fell a million short from breaking Adele record who did it naturally since then she released 40 different variants to help sell the record that would've dropped off the charts a longtime ago. She manipulates alot of this and again I think it will catch up with her.

Oh puh-lease. The same reason GMYAL was able to crack the top 10. As for variants, every artist does them and if wasnt for variants nobody would be buying physical copies period and everybody here would be crying over streaming-only releases.

[Slickness 17]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

That's an easy cop out tho...we dont live in the 90s with regional releases not to mention she's literally in the middle of a huge global tour. I stand by what i said, you either are too old or live under a rock or just lying to seem cool. I mean i guess it would make sense that some people are all of a the above...

Outside of a few places she doesn't sell well or chart well either. In Austria where she had to cancel her show, she has sold very little albums there and has never charted well in that country despite selling out shows there. U2 has been one of the most succesful touring acts for decades now and so has the stones but when is the last time they had a successful album or hit single. Her tour for most overseas is just something that people are going to, in fact in some of the places she toured the crowd was mostly Americans not the locals who went to see her,  an example is in Spain she sold out shows but has like 2 hits singles from years ago and 1 album that charted well over there.