Very honestly, has Taylor Swift surpassed Madonna all-around?

[Arckangel 294]

This is not an anti-Taylor Swift thread. And we all know Taylor Swift and Madonna are two different and very unique artists. This is just a question... A very honest, brutally honest question. Has Taylor Swift surpassed Madonna all-around?

1. In terms of social and pop culture impact. First, it was Paula Abdul; she started outselling Madonna in the United States. And for a brief period, Britney Spears seemed to be on her way to supplant Madonna... Until the kiss. And then it was Lady Gaga. And not so long afterwards, Taylor Swift ended up outselling and surpassing Lady Gaga. According to Elton John, Taylor Swift is a great songwriter, great artist, the biggest phenomenon since The Beatles. (And you know he'd never say that about Madonna! He even threw a fit when Madonna beat him for best songwriter at the Golden Globes.)

2. In terms of peak longevity... It seems like Taylor Swift's peak just never ends! From that 2009 VMAs moment (essentially her consecration and initiation) during which Kanye West interrupted her to her many wins last night at the 2024 VMAs, some would argue that her peak is outlasting Madonna's (though Madonna has had many peaks and highlights during her career).

3. In terms of artistry, mainly songwriting. Madonna is the author and producer (usually executive producer and co-song producer) of the vast majority of her catalogue. Madonna is also oftentimes the vocal melodist and/or co-composer. Madonna has some sole songwriting credits, and she plays the guitar. Taylor Swift and Madonna seem equal on those fronts, but many are under the impression Taylor Swift is more of a songwriter (a singer-songwriter as opposed to a singer and songwriter) and more of a guitarist. Heck, Taylor Swift was recently voted the eighth best guitarist of the last two decades!

4. In terms of youth appeal. Taylor Swift is now 34 years old and still appeals a lot to youngsters. At age 34, Madonna was singing "Erotica," "Deeper and Deeper," "Fever," "Bad Girl" & "Rain" and was perhaps seen as more adult contemporary. And as soon as she hit 35 and went on her Girlie Show Tour, some media already started calling her "old" and "grandma."

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Note: I must admit that the fame of Taylor Swift, esp. in this digital era, is unprecedented! I sometimes read that the era of big legendary megastars is over, but this doesn't seem to be the case of Taylor Swift.

[adled 106]

honestly, does anyone knows any of her songs besides Shake it off ? nope .

so I wouldn't worry, Madonna is safe from that insignificant crap .

Edited Friday at 05:40 AM by adled (see edit history)

[Bjonkers 1,701]

There's a thread for general Swiftie speculation & discussion... this is a place for Madonna news.

 

[deathproof 11,138]

She has number 1 records and songs, and high grossing tours.

Shes successful. No doubt about that.

But her artistry and creative expression is not in the same league. And there will always be that distinction. So no, she has not surpassed Madonna.

[Adonna 21,001]

Not a contest to me. Taylor has rightfully so been a huge success.  She's very huge, and yes on the the same popularity level Madonna was in the 80's or 90's.  As for her music being as impactful as Madonna, I'd say "No".  I just wanted to get my two cents in before the this thread turns into a shit show, bashing Taylor!  There is no doubt Taylor's been quite influential these days and I feel like she's on the right side of things!! 

[MerBoy13 595]

No one will ever be Madonna just as no one will ever be Taylor Swift.

[Angelo 5,886]

Honestly, who cares 

[wtg1987 10,640]

29 minutes ago, adled said:

honestly, does anything knows any of her songs besides Shake it off ? nope .

so I wouldn't worry, Madonna is safe from that insignificant crap .

this slays me !!! and its so true too - her last album sold millions but no general music fan could probably even name one song of it(yet she still one loads of MTV awards - like that was a shock ) and yet everyone raves about how popular she is - imo she will never be in same league as M because she is not outspoken or takes any kind of artistic risks, she cant dance, has no sex appeal and just appeals to (mostly) vacuous teenage girls.... but i like her Lover album only ...

[Pootz333 2,914]

Her fans will say "Yes, of course."

M fans will say "Yeah, sure, drop dead."

Different strokes for different folks.

 

[missberic 1,182]

If you had said "has Kermit the frog surpassed Madonna all arround?" people would take your thread more seriously. Throwing Taylor's name in this forum is just an opportunity for bitter boomers to hate on her and exchange likes on their comments.

Having said that, the answer is no. Huge impact, but different times and not comparable.

[Arckangel 294]

18 minutes ago, Adonna said:

Not a contest to me. Taylor has rightfully so been a huge success.  She's very huge, and yes on the the same popularity level Madonna was in the 80's or 90's.  As for her music being as impactful as Madonna, I'd say "No".  I just wanted to get my two cents in before the this thread turns into a shit show, bashing Taylor!  There is no doubt Taylor's been quite influential these days and I feel like she's on the right side of things!! 

 

2 minutes ago, Pootz333 said:

Her fans will say "Yes, of course."

M fans will say "YeaTah, sure, drop dead."

Different strokes for different folks.

 

 

Something is strange, though. As @nito84bcn mentioned in another thread, when Madonna was Taylor Swift's age and years before she was her age, she was not cumulating as many awards...

[Arckangel 294]

10 minutes ago, missberic said:

If you had said "has Kermit the frog surpassed Madonna all arround?" people would take your thread more seriously. Throwing Taylor's name in this forum is just an opportunity for bitter boomers to hate on her and exchange likes on their comments.

Having said that, the answer is no. Huge impact, but different times and not comparable.

Even when Madonna was younger than Taylor Swift, she was not winning as many awards. Taylor Swift just rakes everything in year after year after year. Does this mean that things are overhyped these days? Or maybe the industry sees Taylor Swift as that brilliantly talented. Or maybe Taylor has the bestest connections!

[JustinTimes 978]

Madonna changed the trajectory for women in music and is highly influential and admired. Madonna is iconic and will be remembered for decades. They are not in the same league and never will be.

[Askeroff 8,312]

Records are made to be  broken.

But Madonna its not only sales and figures its impact on pop culture that nobody has and never will.

[lucasciccone 4,289]

No one can deny her commercial success, which is HUGE, but IMO she will never have Madonna's cultural impact. That's what makes you a legend.

[DiegoLCL 5,723]

As a product, yes.
As a cultural phenomenon? No. And the world we live today doesn't allow the likes of Madonna and Michael Jackson to exist anymore.

[androiduser 2,882]

Commercially, with the new standards that have changed - yes, she has surpassed Madonna

artistically and culturally, she has not

[stefo 7,658]

1. In terms of social and pop culture impact. If for social and cultural impact you mean sales, maybe. Frankly who cares who's the first one, the importance is being among them. The main thing is that M has always been a controversial character, she is devisive cause she takes strong positions on sensitive matters, provoking discussions, often offending some people. Now, nobody had that kind of impact for 25 years with the same ammount of success and attention. And a very few went on for 25 years releasing hits and classics that young people have at least heard around without knowing who was singing (if you watch some random reaction videos by youngest, they all basically say the same thing "I might have heard it somewhere cause it's familiar and wow so catchy, even if dated"). Madonna changed the rules of the game in terms of performing and visualizing the music she released. Now, this is for me social and cultural impact. Of course, in terms of sales, Swift or someone else will or have already surpassed her. But what is the cultural impact of Swift when many of us know that fuching Espresso thing by Carpenter and not one Swift song, except Shake it off?

2. In terms of peak longevity... Her peak is 15 years long, M didn't have such a long peak in terms of sales and general public appreciation, but that was not her only goal: M created always new stuff, she changed almost everything (image, music genre, discussion themes) every single time and often pushing people. So she didn't have that kind of peak but she was able to reconquer each time their attention and the appreciation of people who didn't like what she did three years before (the most famous episodes are ROL and COADF). And in terms of longevity it's interesting how, passed the scandal moment, the Erotica era especially, but for many also the American Life one, got to be considered among her best and underrated works, still appreciated by critics and who choses to explore her catalogue. So yes, Swift has a 15 years long continous peak, M had a stronger and overall longer impact and definitely a more innovative, wich means risky, approach to her work. Who knows what will be remembered of Swift's long commercial peak in time?

3. In terms of artistry, mainly songwriting. I just know people who don't know her or kids (my nephews and the children of a couple of friends) who don't appreciate her cause they say her music is shallow, flat so ... Still waiting for a generation hymn composed by her, like LAP, LIB, Frozen, Vogue or Music. And I don't think Elton John is a metre when it comes to judge M's work. 

4. In terms of youth appeal. M at 46 was in the ears, hearts and especially feet of millions of kids around the world who went back to school listening "Time goes by so slowly". The Erotica backlash was a phase, M always regained her numbers. At the age of 42 she went cowgirl and aaaall the kids and the young people clothes shops windows in the city centers were full of flared jeans and cowboy hats. The same five years later with the Hung Up bombers and leotards. And, once again about social and cultural impact, did it ever happen something like this with Swift? For M it was the norm ...

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Note: I sometimes read that the era of big legendary megastars is over, but this doesn't seem to be the case of Taylor Swift.

THIS IS THE POINT for me, I definitelly agree about it. I never saw such a stardom phenomenon as this one since the 80s. It was not Britney and far far far from that it was Gaga. They had their huge moments but Swift is a phenomenon, so she'll probably end up being one of them if she goes on, but surpassing M or Jacko is impossible cause they released songs that defined two or even three generations and created a way to make their job that was not as we know it today. That's what the Beatles did, that's what Elvis did. Swift sells, good for her.

[RUADJAI 15,949]

Is anyone interviewing Taylor Swift? 

If her beginning was 2009 then she’s 15 years in?
She’s in Madonna’s Ray Of Light era. Same with Gaga. 

Going by age she’s about to start Bedtime Stories. 

Does she have a MUSIC, American Life, Confessions era to go? I guess we’ll see. 

 

[True Blue 84 2,182]

There are many dutch facebook articles about Taylor Swift today, because she's now the most awarded woman in mtv or something. And oh boy those comments, people are just as mean to her as they do with Madonna. The Madonna comparison also gets mentioned a few times, that Taylor is the new Madonna... i must say some people on there defend that comment with " she's not even close to Madonna " and " Madonna is not an industry puppet like Taylor. 

To me Taylor has not surpassed Madonna, maybe in some sales like tours or awards but definitely not with cultural imapct and imapct in music itself. To me she's not on the same level as Madonna, Michael, George, Prince ect, I actually think she's a bit overrated. Fantastic songwriter but that's about it.

But on the other hand she's verry popular so let her be. There is room for more than one popular Woman in music. But Madonna is and will always be one of them legends no matter how many the new girls sold. 

[Anapausis 6,642]

47 minutes ago, Askeroff said:

Records are made to be  broken.

But Madonna its not only sales and figures its impact on pop culture that nobody has and never will.

Yes.

41 minutes ago, lucasciccone said:

No one can deny her commercial success, which is HUGE, but IMO she will never have Madonna's cultural impact. That's what makes you a legend.

Exactly.

3 minutes ago, androiduser said:

Commercially, with the new standards that have changed - yes, she has surpassed Madonna

artistically and culturally, she has not

Much that.

Now I wonder if such a thread like this would exist in places like Nation or Bible. I TRULY believe this is what makes the difference on Infinity. They would have destroyed the OP in a second. But I think they wouldn't be TRULY wrong in doing that...

Given I've already one more time wasted a golden opportunity to keep my mouth shut (as if), I will refrain myself from coming back to this thread irrespectively of how I will be called out for the words of my first long paragraph. See you all on other threads, bye babies bye!

[Piksel8 727]

4 minutes ago, androiduser said:

Commercially, with the new standards that have changed - yes, she has surpassed Madonna

artistically and culturally, she has not

Best answer! Music standards 10 or 20 years ago are different from how they are now. from how it was in the past 30 years, those standards were broken and shaped by Madonna with her own business and artistic standards. Taylor is nowhere close to shaping anything since her records can easily be broken by one of her peers.

[androiduser 2,882]

1 minute ago, Piksel8 said:

Best answer! Music standards 10 or 20 years ago are different from how they are now. from how it was in the past 30 years, those standards were broken and shaped by Madonna with her own business and artistic standards. Taylor is nowhere close to shaping anything since her records can easily be broken by one of her peers.

well, I meant to say that Taylor set the new standards and I don't see any of her peers breaking her records, it will probably be some pop star from one of the next few genrrations. It took a long for someone like Taylor to achieve all that.

[sara94 2,544]

Its just that her fanbase are really strong and loyal. Young white girls who can relate to her and see her as a best friend. They don't mind streaming her stuff 24/7 on multiple platforms and buy each and every version of her records. 

She however will never be in the same league as Madonna as an artist. 18 years into the music industry and basically 0 growth. How long will she sing about her exes? Her prime will not last forever. 

[androiduser 2,882]

Also, while her cultural significance is totally different from Madonna's - Taylor has her own significance, like making a huge influence on the young voters in the US. While it's a bit exaggerated, there's talk of Taylor being able to overturn the elections by endorsing a candidate. We didn't have that kind of thing with Madonna and Michael Jackson and Prince. The world has changed and cultural significance has changed too.