GhostOrchid
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Posts posted by GhostOrchid
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12 hours ago, McDonna said:
Yeah, I like them as well. It's very artsy fartsy. Reminds me of a lot of Rocco's art.
Maybe he made them
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23 hours ago, Anonna said:
My theory or speculation is that M deliberately picks all these ugly images for some artistic purpose. Surely it’s intentional. There may be irony or whatever it is behind the decision.
Whether it fits or works for the career-encompassing tour under the title, “Celebration”, I don’t know…
She's in her 'later era Picasso' phase. The art of the ugly
- mr00mister and LongIslandTea
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4 hours ago, cosmic_system said:
Do you realized the “horrible paintings” are also on the screens right?
I quite like these. I think people are more likely to wear t-shirts with these on them than actual photographs of Madonna.
- DiegoLCL, RUADJAI and cosmic_system
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2 minutes ago, Drownedboy said:
And so, in my opinion, in terms of musical richness, not style, rythm or visual..her albums with Pat were among her bests, and better than albums like Erotica or Madame x. And I think many fans and critics around the world would agree.
Oh I agree with you, my favorite producers are Pat and Shep. True Blue, LAP and ROL are in my top 5.
I'm just saying that it's not entirely due to his musical genius. She wanted those kind of songs and he was there.
Imagine that back in 1992 she told Shep -"listen, i want 14 songs of Vogue and Rescue Me, I want to rule the charts and pop radio". He would now be the most celebrated person by those same fans.
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15 minutes ago, Drownedboy said:
But who knows how each song got created.
True, except we do know based on the interviews her collaborators gave over the years.
Especially Pat who elaborated on every single song they did together, there's a recent interview on youtube when he was promoting his Madonna-inspired live shows. Yes, he would start with something on his piano, but she would lay a melody over it.
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On 10/12/2023 at 4:46 PM, Drownedboy said:
So Pat Leonard is not a magical creator of melodies and phenomenal musician? Some of Madonna´s best and most legendary work was with him, like it or not, and Madame x or Erotica are not among her most beloved and iconic material, if you go outside her fans zone. Erotica might me peerless, but melodically it pales next to another phenomenal records of hers.
But yes, melodically I´m sure she is able of create good music too. I was not saying the oposite.
Oh, also, when I spoke about her best songs I never mentioned Vogue, cause it´s an amazing dance pop song, brilliantly produced and sung but melodically it is not frozen either, you know.
Madonna chooses a collaborator based on what she wants to achieve with a particular song/recording. She wanted catchy pop- she got Pat on board. She wanted raw material with deep beats- she told Pettibone how she wanted it done.
Melodies are Madonna's own, as confirmed by almost everyone she ever worked with, and the lack of them on Erotica was a deliberate choice. Pat is an amazing musician and collaborator, but he was also lucky that those were the type of songs she wanted at the time.
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On 10/3/2023 at 11:01 AM, gst6662000 said:
oh i thought Daniel also remixed BYE BYE BABY too as heard at the VMA
He did actually! Thanks for reminding me.
So yeah that one was probably planned as a 5th single in the US and was ready for radio plays
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2 hours ago, MPowered said:
You know...if I had the means I would! Sadly I don't so I'm stuck with my butcher knife!
(Don't tell me a 10 minute Marlene Dietrich parody of Like A Virgin along with a performance of I'm Going Bananas is the absolute best thing she could have done for that tour)
It's theater... it's cabaret... It's absolute perfection.
Sometimes i play the tour and just admire how perfect everything is. Except for her lip synching in JML.
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17 hours ago, LongIslandTea said:
Since there's already a backlash, why not go all the way to get the most $$$$?
I'm sure Erotica single would have been certified multi-platinum single if the video single was released back then.
Maybe because Erotica video wasn't banned as they expected. MTV only reduced it to late night plays.
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19 hours ago, Bad Boy said:
Do you know the purpose in commission the Waiting Remix? Made no sense to commission a remix just for b-side purpose. Must have been considered a single or done for live arrangement at one point.
Further proof for me in favor of Waiting remix being planned as a single was when earlier this year Warner released the Rain single on digital platforms, Madonna promoted it by heavily incorporating Waiting remix in her IG stories, not a single mention of Rain.
I think she's still pissed it was chosen over Waiting which was good and ready to go and then cancelled.
And it's not a duet with some nobody, Everlast's band was the talk of the country at that time. Imagine going up to an artist and saying- hey, do you wanna duet for a b-side? That guy was promised a feature on a Madonna single
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7 minutes ago, Prayer said:
It had worked before with "JML". I'm sure they thought she could pull it off again. In a way she did, a Top 3 single with a song like that (I love it but it's not her most commercial piece ever) and no video (couldn't be aired) and all purely based on her name and the whole hype was a success. I mean who else could have a song like that on the radio then.
The book and all the bad press around it was the problem, really.
But they must have known that radios and especially TV wouldn't play it. The initial chart success faded quickly because everybody only tuned in to see the naked Madonna and hear her (once probably) talk about sexual fantasies.
JML had something in it that you want to keep listening to over and over. For the general public Erotica really doesn't. It was a really risky move on their part - to choose that song to lead the whole era. In my opinion that would have been the perfect 3rd single, to release along the book and the movie. Good few months after the album hit hard. But, they chose to give in to her demands I think.
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2 minutes ago, Prayer said:
I can see why Warner was confident with "Erotica" as the lead single... it was basically "Justify My Love" part II or at least a clear continuation of it. If that sound and style had been number one for her only 18 months earlier why not again? Record companies always demanded more of what worked previously.
But of course it never works like that.
I think with Erotica single specifically, and the video, Warner was praying their asses off for it to not be a disaster. But I think they gave her that initial freedom as agreed in the 60 million contract she had signed earlier.
Justify My Love was fresh, yes. Erotica was pure gamble.
- Prayer and gst6662000
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6 minutes ago, Drownedboy said:
After LAP and Vogue you know that a song like Erotica, quite trancy and hipnotic maybe, but not really catchy in a pop sense, in my opinion, was never going to achieve the same level of success.
Justify my love was not a catchy pop song but it was very fresh and new at its time, but that was enough of Madonna speaking on her songs and achieving number 1 status.
Yeah, lightning doesn't strike twice. She was into a lot of spoken word around that time.
Nice ass btw
- deathproof and gst6662000
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3 minutes ago, McDonna said:
I still don't believe this was due to WARNER taking over, trying to do damage control. I think it just became a collective agreement to go with Deeper and Deeper to show there was traditional commercial pop on the album.
Damage control could also mean Madonna and Warner having sat at a table, like adults, and deciding how to change the course of action to meet sales targets. I don't know how these meetings look. Not like she was grounded and sent to her room. But I imagine they had the last say in what was happening in this particular case.
- deathproof and Cyberraga
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Just now, Cyberraga said:
Yes it did.
Release time killed Erotica sales. The album should've been released BEFORE Sex book and before The Body of Evidence.
If only this was the order of releases, this would have been a smash album:
- Deeper and deeper, 1st single
- Erotica album
- Bad girl, 2nd single
- Erotica, 3rd single / Sex book / Body of evidence (all sexually themed, would serve as a great cross-promotion, to be released at the same time 3-4 months after the album which would give it time to kill it in sales)
- Aiwa08 and gst6662000
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2 minutes ago, thegoldencalf said:
Didn’t Erotica the single have a great debut?
Yes well, everybody tuned in to see and hear the new Madonna, but this quickly faded away as it's not a song non-fans would play on repeat.
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1 minute ago, McDonna said:
There is no "possibly" to it. Bad Girl was intended as the second single. Mark Romanek and Tim Burton were both approached to direct Bad Girl. Madonnatribe also posted a leaked leaflet of the original track listing as well as explained how Bad Girl originally was going to be the second single:
Thank you. I learn something new every day.
This is also the evidence that damage control was indeed taking place and that singles were not going as planned.
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2 minutes ago, McDonna said:
There was no damage control going on with the Erotica album. There were only a couple sexually charged songs on the album as it is. The rest were pretty safe songs. I believe the singles came along as always planned. I don't believe Madonna stepped aside at all as well. Though, the record company is and has always had a strong influence on what singles get released. Still, I think Madonna always had the last say regarding the singles that were released on this album. In many cases, the record companies tend to cancel follow up singles, either due to they don't want to put anymore into the album or they think it's ran its course.
It's not only about being sexually charged, but they also needed to be commercially appealing and catchy. Therefore, Daniel Abraham was brought in to "fix" Fever and Rain.
Waiting feat. Everlast was probably planned as a single (imo). there is no reason to bring in a major artist at the time to duet for a b-side.
Madonna always has the last say as long as the sales targets are met. If not, the label steps in.
- gst6662000 and TOpher
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1 hour ago, PaperFaces said:
"Why"s is So Hard" shouldve been the final single off of "Erotica".
I can never get over that not happening.
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1 hour ago, Prayer said:
Was it damage control by Warner really? I remember reading some reviews saying the album didn't have obvious singles apart from "Deeper" and I somehow agree. It's a great album but didn't have the obvious commercial super smashes the previous ones had.
The 2nd single was supposed to be "Bad Girl" with a super sexually charged video, but "Deeper And Deeper" was rush released after the initial backlash of the album release and the book. They needed old pop commercial Madonna back in full mode... yet she chose to do a super arty video for it.
It's possible that Bad Girl was supposed to be the 2nd single, i'm not sure though. Planning takes some time, with commissioning the video and remixes, so i imagine that was already in the works for D&D even before erotica single was released, or around that time. I could be wrong though.
I think 2 Madonna albums suffered damage control - Erotica and American Life
- Prayer and gst6662000
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1 hour ago, Blue Jean said:
I think if they were in damage control mode they would have released Rain right after Deeper and Deeper.
But even then she went ahead and did The Girlie Show which featured some of her raunchiest performances.
Yes well, with the tour it's a private show that you had to pay to get into, so understandably there would be no censoring there. Majority of people who paid to see the show already bought the album.
What the label tried to control were things that people were exposed to such as songs on the radio and videos on TV which are supposed to get you to buy the record.
As for the order of the singles and videos, the planning takes some time, so i guess she was still fighting strong in late '92, the first 2 singles were still top 10 hits, but as soon as Bad Girl flopped even with a blockbuster video they were like- step aside, we're in charge now.
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We all know the brilliant Erotica album got a bit of damage control treatment by Warner Bros, who desperately tried to get it back on track commercially, and make some cash once the public turned against Madonna with the release of the lead single & video, Sex book and Body of Evidence movie.
What do you think the singles and videos would have been, had it all gone according to the original plan? Here are my thoughts:
1. Erotica
single and video (released as planned) >>> September '92
2. Deeper and Deeper
single and video (released as planned BUT earlier I think. they tried to make the people forget all about Erotica single as soon as possible- I think the originally planned date was about a month later) >>> December '92
3. Bad Girl / Fever (remixes)
single (released as planned, together with Fever remixes) BUT the video was supposed to be directed by Mark Romanek- as confirmed, who, the previous year directed K.D. Lang's Constant Craving, which Madonna loved, and was supposed to look similar to that one, kind of like the Secret video- b/w, smokey club performance. Instead, Warner opted for Michael Jackson-esque blockbuster video in style of "Who is it", also directed by Fincher who took over. All in effort to boost the MTV plays which declined with the previous 2 videos. Fever was supposed to remain only a club song >>> March '93
4. Waiting (feat. Everlast of House of Pain) / Bye Bye Baby (remixes)
This is where it gets interesting because this track was released as a b-side to Rain. House of Pain was the hottest band in the country at the time with "Jump Around" and Everlast was obviously recruited for a main single release (no way anybody would agree to a feature for a b-side). But Warner couldn't deal with another adult-themed song and lyrics (especially in Everlast's bit), so they pushed this one out. Instead, they got Daniel Abraham to remix 2 songs in more of a commercial pop style- "Fever" for video play (which was also not planned originally, and to try to capitalize from Fever remixes already being in stores and boost her MTV presence) and "Rain", for subsequent radio play and single release #4. Madonna obviously hated this decision because all this was in contrast to the image she was building for Erotica era, and she has largely ignored this song throughout her career, including this year when the single was released digitally and received ZERO mention on her IG, unlike all other digital releases >>> June '93
Bye Bye Baby remixes were obviously finished earlier and ready to be released, but I'm not sure if they were supposed to be the B-side of Waiting, or a separate 5th release to coincide with the tour. They were obviously cancelled in the US for not being commercial enough, because at that point Warner was trying to save a sinking ship and Madonna was no longer in control.
So to summarize, in my opinion, the Erotica damage control consisted of: Bad Girl -Fincher video, Fever video, Rain single and video.
I could obviously be wrong, but this makes sense to me. Any thoughts?
What is your favorite Like a Prayer performance of all time
in The World Tours
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Sticky & Sweet tour 100%.
Was lucky enough to see it live from the fan pit, without watching any clips prior and not knowing what to expect and I was mindblown.