A glimpse into who Madonna really is

[kesiak 3,037]

21 hours ago, Elisa said:

About her stance against Le Pen and the alt-right, not only is it really disrespectful to visit a foreign country and attack its political leaders (go to Russia and attack Poutine, now that would be having some balls), but it was also done in such a mediocre manner it was laughable. Suggesting all conservative people are "Hitler" is the lowest level of thinking. I'm also very curious to know what her father thinks of her being so vocal politically. I seriously doubt her father is a democrat. After the last elections, I came to think that artists and performers shouldn't be too involved politically. Most of them are not educated in politics anyway. I've always liked seeing them expressing their ideas and change people's perspective through their art (like MJ did with "They don't care about us" or "Scream"), but they shouldn't go so far as telling people who they should vote for, insult certain politicians and support other. It becomes patronizing and disrespectful to the people. 

 

Who cares if her father is a conservative? She's a grown ass woman for crying out loud. Do you and your family agree on politics all the time?

As for artists voicing political opinions while not being educated in politics - Donal Trump is in the White House, I think it's a safe bet to say political knowledge has little currency these days. That's one thing, my other point is that they're human just like you and me, humans with the right to vote and freedom of expression. They're entitled to their opinion and you're welcome to disagree with it. Don't see anything disrespectful about it.

[NowRadiate 3,331]

15 hours ago, Elisa said:

@NowRadiate: I don't care that she's not the "larger-than-life" star that she was. Nobody in their right mind would expect that. It's simply impossible for a poster to peak for eternity. What Madonna accomplished by being on top of the game for several decades is already incredible. I care that she kills her own legacy.... you can agree, disagree, but the fact is, that most people find her pathetic today. That's enough to conclude that she's doing something wrong. We can't even say that she's taking huge artistic risks, and thus the masses don't get it.... which is kind of what happens with "American life", or "Sex". No she's fucking it up by being a desperate trend follower. Honestly, that is not something I expected from her. 

 

It takes guts to be an anti-Trump liberal, really? It takes guts to criticize conservatives politicians and ideas? No, it doesn't. That's what any person wanting the medias approval would do. 

"she has always expressed and played with her inherent duality. Madonna. Mother of God or Jezebel. Shallow and deep. Entertainer and mindset-challenger."

That's so perfectly worded. I might quote you if you don't mind :-) That's exactly what Im missing. I can't see the duality anymore. Two years ago, she posted a picture on Instagram where she was giving a finger in a church. (Again, just like the Femen, I dare her to do that in a Synagogue or in a Mosque). Kissing a black priest, masturbating before asking "God?".... that was something else then giving a finger in a church. I don't even get the message there. 

Like you said, there are definitely noone to admire. I don't feel like Im wasting time though. I've explained why I feel the need to express my rather negative opinion. There's a strong emotional attachment. However, I will always share my opinion in a respectful and thought-provoking way.... and there's also plenty to say about past eras. 

You are doing exactly what you accuse orhers of. You are pidgeon-holing them nonstop. You place assumptions and call them facts. No, you are certainly not a full-on-conservative. To me, you seem like a full-on Trumpist. And I really don’t care about your personal connection to what you saw Madonna embodied for you back in the day, and what she disappoints you with since 2008. Seems you don’t understand her, or you can’t find a connection. Then, let go. I would have in your position. 

I’m not saying she is perfect but you, like many others, like to keep her hostage to a particular role or image. And that’s the opposite of freedom. You are fascinated with fanhood/celebrity/interpretation on why one adores someone from afar but you are subject to the ownership aspect of it. At least from this distant perspective. If you didn’t put such long posts up I would think you are trolling. (Sorry)

I still think if M is a huge disappointment since 2008, why is one registered here, why is one following what she does.

[kesiak 3,037]

23 hours ago, Elisa said:

Well, it would be nice to stop pushing the idea that all conservatives are heartless nazis. Not only is it intellectually stupid, but it's also dishonest. Her father is a pretty conservative man, but he accepted his son's homosexuality and kept on loving him as a son. There are a lot of reasonable conservative people. 

Of course, celebrities are entitled to their opinion. I've never said the contrary. However, I thing it's not good for entertainment to be too involved in politics. It has to remain mainly about escapism and provoking thought. Not bluntly saying "hey that's the bad guy" and "that's the good guy". Who are you with?  It sucks, and it's insulting  to the people. 

Not to mention that during these last elections, with all these stars bashing Trump, a lot of people have been disgusted by Hollywood. The magic is dead because of all the patronizing speeches and the incredible hypocrisy. People think :" Oh really, you're telling me to open the borders but you leave in gated communities and have 3 bodyguards escorting you when you go to Starbucks?" or "You're telling me the grabbing-pussy incident is the epitome of immorality when you have been drinking Champagne and making movies with men known for being dangerous predators for women, sometimes for children?" 

Im more of a conservative, but I'm definitely not a fan of Trump as a person. However, seeing De Niro threatening him to punch him in the face (thus doing what Trump would do, bluffing and playing alpha), or seeing Madonna promising blowjobs to Hillary voters was pathetic, and actually serving Trump. All this made me disliking artists taking sides politically. You can fight racism by writing "To Kill a Mockingbird", and you can go on every show to insult a politician you don't like. Not the same.

I do understand your point and I suppose a lot depends on which side of the political spectrum you're on. Having said that, don't you think we should hold people running for office to a higher standard, regardless of their political proclivities? Yes, there are plenty of celebrities with dubious personal/professional life choices who have criticised Trump but they were not the ones running for the most powerful office in the world. The true hypocrisy lies with the Republican party who not so long ago was apoplectic with Bill Clinton getting head in the oval office and now are happy to endorse (and stand by) a serial sexual offender, man who not only had sex with porn stars but also paid them off to keep their mouth shut. 

And yes, it would be lovely if somebody wrote another "To Kill A Mockingbird" and changed the world with their art somehow. The sad reality is that we're in 2019, the age of social media, instant gratification and 24-hour news cycle. Subtleties and reading between the lines doesn't seem to cut it anymore. One of the reasons so many people (famous or not) became so vocal and blutntly outspoken politically in the past few years is because they genuinely felt their basic rights and the very foundation of democracy was being threatened. You don't sit and write a thesis about it hoping that the Instagram generation "gets it" - you go out and shout as loud as you can. 

[RUADJAI 14,988]

On 1/25/2019 at 8:48 AM, Elisa said:

 "(or Milo)"

Isn't he nothing but a troll associated with Neo Nazis?  That's your compass? Out of everyone in the whole of EARTH that's who you picked?! 

On 1/25/2019 at 8:48 AM, Elisa said:

Would she do "Papa don't preach" today? I doubt it. She would be too worried to be on the pro-life side (even if Im not pro-life, but it was brave). 

First... She doesn't take a side in Papa Don't Preach. She presents reality and tells one story. This does not represent her beliefs as it's known she's had abortions. 

I'm not really sure what you are saying she's afraid of now, but I can assure you she's not. The ambiguity? Just because she isn't walking a line with a specific issue in a song doesn't mean she's afraid to present an ambiguous idea. Maybe she realizes her audience or the general public isn't as deep thinking as she gave it credit for. Remember Madonna doesn't necessarily make a song because she wants to cause a ruckus. The ruckus is usually something she didn't anticipate. It something that happens TO HER. 

On 1/25/2019 at 8:48 AM, Elisa said:

I see her as the symbol of western decadence, as the embodiment of what happens when individual rights are the only value left, when individual rights become entitlement and narcissism. Everything becomes mediocrity : "I can disfigure my body if I want to! YEY ! FREEDOM!". It doesn't get more adolescent that that. 

Are we all going to pretend that these extreme behaviors are ok now? In the name of freedom? 

So much to unwrap... Individual rights become entitlement?  Are people not entitled to their rights? I don't get it. Madonna doing something to her body has nothing to do with you. She didn't do it for freedom. She did it for whatever reasons she wanted to. You are making light of a choice she made that likely had a lot of thought put into it. She didn't get it just to say she has a right to do it. She says she has a right to do it because people had a problem with it. It was a response to peoples ideas of what she should do. THE OPPOSITE OF FREEDOM. And she's right. She can do whatever the fuck she wants to with her body. As you can as well, hopefully, depending on where you live and your religion or personal beliefs you govern yourself with. 

On 1/25/2019 at 8:48 AM, Elisa said:

About her stance against Le Pen and the alt-right, not only is it really disrespectful to visit a foreign country and attack its political leaders (go to Russia and attack Poutine, now that would be having some balls), but it was also done in such a mediocre manner it was laughable. Suggesting all conservative people are "Hitler" is the lowest level of thinking. I'm also very curious to know what her father thinks of her being so vocal politically. I seriously doubt her father is a democrat. After the last elections, I came to think that artists and performers shouldn't be too involved politically. Most of them are not educated in politics anyway. I've always liked seeing them expressing their ideas and change people's perspective through their art (like MJ did with "They don't care about us" or "Scream"), but they shouldn't go so far as telling people who they should vote for, insult certain politicians and support other. It becomes patronizing and disrespectful to the people. 

Madonna did not say all conservative people are Hitler. Let me repeat it, MADONNA DID NOT SAY ALL CONSERVATIVE PEOPLE ARE HITLER. I don't know if you came up with that by yourself, or if you were fed that... but this is part of the problem. This right here might actually explain why her projections are a little more clear cut these days. Because people seem to take a part of something and bend it to their world view, no matter how askew it is, to try and prove their point.

People endorse people. Im not sure what the issue is with pop stars doing it. It seems to only be a problem when its not for the person who you align with. Some pop stars shouldn't speak because they don't know what they're talking about, that I agree with you . When Britney Spears said in 2003 that we should just "Agree with our president", thats  a case when someone shouldn't speak. 

and last, I can't speak of Le Penn specifically because I'm not that informed with France's politics, but I do know American politics and if Im not wrong it was a similar message of separation, and pointing fingers at certain marginalized groups to incite fear and make people think irrationally about the state of the world so that they trust these people as the only ones who can fix it. I'm sorry but I'm glad I live in a time and place where people are screaming from the rooftops about how fucking ignorant and exploitative it is. People are being taken advantage of to propel other peoples agenda. If you can't see that, Im sorry. It's not politics. It's basic human decency and treating others as you would want to be treated.

When she put that swastika on  Le Penn's forehead she didn't call her Hitler. She was fighting against lies. She was fighting against separation. She was fighting against hate. She was fighting against prejudice.  She explained this in MANY speeches during the MDNA tour. She explained this as the very reason she did the one off show in Olympia. She explained this in the Secret Project, and in this interview above as well. 

Since you brought up Papa Don't Preach, I'll use abortion as an example...  Abortion is still a big issue in America but its not even about the actual issue anymore. Again, certain people are exploiting some peoples religious beliefs to further their agenda. Some people on the right may actually care about a human embryo, but I would argue most don't. They use this issue as a way to divide. The hypocrisy is exposed when those same people are not fighting for anyones life as soon as they are born. they're not fighting for children born into poverty that are not eating. They're not fighting for healthcare for people with pre existing conditions. They're not fighting for older people who can't afford to live on medicare. They're not fighting for minimum wage to be increased to help people live even a modest life. They're not fighting for war vets who can't support themselves because they have mental issues or physical issues that hinder them from work. No.. they don't care about people. Who do you think Michael Jackson was singing about in "They Don't Care About Us?" They care about money and power. Their so called opinions are made depending on how much money it moves in their favor. Their actual stance isn't even important. 

To say that its disrespectful for Madonna to insult someone who is actively making other peoples lives hell is so askew. I think its actually disrespectful for someone to defend or protect people who lie and exploit and oppress and use divisive ideologies to further their agenda. Not even expressing their own ideas, but pretending to express ideas to create turmoil so they can further themselves. You are defending people who are lying to you. You are defending your fuzzy dream. This is the exact opposite of who Madonna is. 

If Madonna comes across as over simplified with her message its because the umbrella that all of these things fall under is simple. TRUTH. 

Now I know there are "conservative" people who believe in human rights and still identify as conservative, its usually for financial reasons. Not because they think brown people are evil. But they're choosing to overlook these impossibly problematic stances that these politicians are taking. And by someone choosing to ignore the rhetoric and still vote for someone who outright says racists things is a big fucking problem. And Im glad Madonna says what's on her mind. 

On 1/26/2019 at 3:58 PM, Elisa said:

Well, it would be nice to stop pushing the idea that all conservatives are heartless nazis. Not only is it intellectually stupid, but it's also dishonest.

If you voted for someone who calls a whole group of people rapists and gang members and murderers because of their stance on other issues or just because it financially benefits you in some way then you are morally bankrupt. And it's the very definition of privilege. Because these words obviously don't affect you. and you are obviously not thinking of how it affects other people or care to find out. 

 

On 1/26/2019 at 3:58 PM, Elisa said:

 People think :" Oh really, you're telling me to open the borders but you leave in gated communities and have 3 bodyguards escorting you when you go to Starbucks?"

Do you think stars have bodyguards because of immigrants? If you took one more second to think about this situation it would have benefitted everyone. There are crazy people everywhere trying to get autographs and selfies. Or people have gates because of crime. Stars have stalkers. Cmon.  

This is not the same fucking thing. You, right here, are saying that immigrants and crime are synonymous. 

 

On 1/26/2019 at 3:58 PM, Elisa said:

"You're telling me the grabbing-pussy incident is the epitome of immorality when you have been drinking Champagne and making movies with men known for being dangerous predators for women, sometimes for children?" 

You are a woman (Im assuming), who is trying to defend a guy who gropes women without consent and who laughs about it and then you acknowledge that there is bad behavior in the industry but you somehow wish people didn't speak out about these things because what?! because they worked in an industry with a predator in a time when they didn't have an opportunity to speak and be heard. 

These are little things that may pass as an intelligent debate on facebook or twitter. But Im not fucking stupid. 

Talk about Madonna being ahead of her time. 

"I don't want no lies
I don't watch TV
I don't waste my time
Won't read a magazine"

Your gem of a statement above is why she was screaming this in 2003. But now it's the internet , fake news, and people in comment sections instead of magazines. Spreading misinformation and jumbling words around to appear as a legitimate point of view. 

Im sorry if any of this comes across as rude, but... seriously a lot of your "points" sound like regurgitated bullshit from less than questionable sources with no personal thought put into it. I know you didn't ask, but my suggestions in life would be to ask more questions than running around making statements and maybe put your devices down for a minute. 

[NowRadiate 3,331]

26 minutes ago, RUADJAI said:

 Some people on the right may actually care about a human embryo, but I would argue most don't. They use this issue as a way to divide. The hypocrisy is exposed when those same people are not fighting for anyones life as soon as they are born. they're not fighting for children born into poverty that are not eating. They're not fighting for healthcare for people with pre existing conditions. They're not fighting for older people who can't afford to live on medicare. They're not fighting for minimum wage to be increased to help people live even a modest life. They're not fighting for war vets who can't support themselves because they have mental issues or physical issues that hinder them from work. No.. they don't care about people. Who do you think Michael Jackson was singing about in "They Don't Care About Us?" They care about money and power. Their so called opinions are made depending on how much money it moves in their favor. Their actual stance isn't even important. 

(...)

If Madonna comes across as over simplified with her message its because the umbrella that all of these things fall under is simple. TRUTH. 

THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NowRadiate 3,331]

6 hours ago, Elisa said:

II understand that in your binary world, people are either conservative/Trumpist or full-on liberals.  

I was trying to have a calm debate, but you are aggressive and it starts to feel as I have to justify myself to you, which I won't do. There are plenty of people on this forum (and others) who feel like me about post-2008, and I'm still a fan of her over several decades. Keep her hostage? She's free to do whatever she wants, and I'm free to like it or not. I've laid out the reasons why I'm here, not going to do it again....so I'll respectfully say what I have to say, whether you like it or not.

If you really understood, you would not generalize as you just did. You're projecting. My world is not binary. Please stop playing the victim, we are only posting opinions here.

You're wrong, I am not interested in justifications, much less to me; I am truly wondering. I am yet to read a positive statement on Madonna from you. Maybe you can point me to it. Forgive me if it seems you recently registered only to criticize. It has happened too many times before on this forum.

I'm not going to argue with you about being a fan or not. Obviously, we have different definitions of that. Not enjoying her since 2008, but still a fan? In my book: has-been fan, or just a fan of an older version of the product. 50%-fan.

If you're free you voice your disapproval, so am I. I dislike that you're trying to downplay her socio-political approach, claiming it is fake bringing in your conservative views , when this thread is not about you or me, nor is it about liberal or conservative standpoints. It's about her humanistic approach.

Sorry to sound harsh. I am done sugarcoating things on here with nagging "fans". I come here and the majority seems to be self-important, self-proclaimed NEGATIVE expert opinions. From "fans".

[Fighter 28,798]

Closing thread at the request of OP.