Why did Madonna go with a Spanish theme for the Take a Bow video?

[EgoRod 5,481]

2 minutes ago, nito84bcn said:

Ok, I understand your point, but I’m from Catalonia and having Franco persecuting your grandparents and killing them because they had Catalan as a language, and a lot of people buried without identity next to our roads... for me it’s a real situation of colionalism. Also taking your money for a project and a monarchy that u didn’t choose, and returning a little part or it to have u always grabbed by your balls, the same thing. 
 

Beating all your poblation, neighbours, kids and grandmas because u wanted to vote on a referendum as a protest is another form of colonialism. Police touching the tits of girls, is a kind of rape too. A modern one, but colionalism after all. This is how a majority feels here tbh. 

As I said your suffering and experience still valid. But it's not colonization.

I was born in the north of Spain, Franco died 3 months I was born. 60% of my family died in the mountains, battling agaisnt the regime or in concentration camps (yeah Spain had those too) (not as fucked up thou)

I also had family that moved to South America scaping form the regime. So I have family there too.

Being under a regime, political state, monarchy is not the same that being colonised.

 

[nito84bcn 2,764]

3 minutes ago, EgoRod said:

As I said your suffering and experience still valid. But it's not colonization.

I was born in the north of Spain, Franco died 3 months I was born. 60% of my family died in the mountains, battling agaisnt the regime or in concentration camps (yeah Spain had those too) (not as fucked up thou)

I also had family that moved to South America scaping form the regime. So I have family there too.

Being under a regime, political state, monarchy is not the same that being colonised.

 

Fair enough ?

[EgoRod 5,481]

I'm sorry to derail the whole conversation with dark sides of history.

 

I think Madonna choose the Spanish theme because she wanted to moved there. It didn't work and ended up in London.

She still visits Gwyneth Paltrow in the north thou.

[Guest DeeperDeeper]

15 hours ago, EgoRod said:

I'm sorry to derail the whole conversation with dark sides of history.

 

I think Madonna choose the Spanish theme because she wanted to moved there. It didn't work and ended up in London.

She still visits Gwyneth Paltrow in the north thou.

I never understood M's anglophilia and marriage to Ritchie - very bizarre since it derailed her career and suppressed her creativity IMO. 

M's a perfect match with latin culture and people. 

[EgoRod 5,481]

1 hour ago, Ashley said:

I never understood M's anglophilia and marriage to Ritchie - very bizarre since it derailed her career and suppressed her creativity IMO. 

M's a perfect match with latin culture and people. 

Guy Ritchie is a 'bad boi' and she loves that. Check Sean before. She meddle with softer emotional types but love to be challenge by the rough toxic masc ones. She had a house in Hampstead not far from George Michael before she started dating Guy. She liked London before.

[Guest DeeperDeeper]

2 minutes ago, EgoRod said:

Guy Ritchie is a 'bad boi' and she loves that. Check Sean before. She meddle with softer emotional types but love to be challenge by the rough toxic masc ones. She had a house in Hampstead not far from George Michael before she started dating Guy. She liked London before.

She does like bad boys, that's for sure. Yet Guy Ritichie isn't a bad boy, he's a just twit and used her. 

 

 

 

 

[EgoRod 5,481]

35 minutes ago, Ashley said:

She does like bad boys, that's for sure. Yet Guy Ritichie isn't a bad boy, he's a just twit and used her. 

 

 

 

 

still falls in the category of bad boi..including being a twit

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On 8/15/2020 at 12:54 PM, BlackPanther86 said:

this song when the song don't even sound Spanish/Latin

On 8/15/2020 at 2:09 PM, nito84bcn said:

Same reason as she sings in French in Paradise, but she's a geisha... 

Well, everything doesn't have to be this literal. It's boring, especially art.

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11 hours ago, Ashley said:

it derailed her career and suppressed her creativity

From Music to The Confessions Tour. Total failure,  sure ?

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On 8/16/2020 at 3:35 AM, Ashley said:

If Madonna had explicitly talked about the cultural meaning behind Vogue with intersectional black/latin/queer roots when it was released

This whole idea wasn't in anyone's head at the time, even in these communities. Intersectionality, especially in gay culture, wasn't a mainstream concept until the mid-2000s. M shone the light on them, she contributed to the beginning of this conversation with Vogue and Truth or Dare, not the other way round.

[deathproof 10,624]

18 minutes ago, discohub said:

This whole idea wasn't in anyone's head at the time, even in these communities. Intersectionality, especially in gay culture, wasn't a mainstream concept until the mid-2000s. M shone the light on them, she contributed to the beginning of this conversation with Vogue and Truth or Dare, not the other way round.

I disagree, completely.

[Redha DBL 7,381]

3 hours ago, discohub said:

From Music to The Confessions Tour. Total failure,  sure ?

I was about to make the exact same comment ! 

[Guest DeeperDeeper]

7 hours ago, discohub said:

This whole idea wasn't in anyone's head at the time, even in these communities. Intersectionality, especially in gay culture, wasn't a mainstream concept until the mid-2000s. M shone the light on them, she contributed to the beginning of this conversation with Vogue and Truth or Dare, not the other way round.

Intersectionality was around, yet it was still in activists and academic circles. 

[Guest DeeperDeeper]

7 hours ago, discohub said:

From Music to The Confessions Tour. Total failure,  sure ?

Music was good, yet it could have been a more cohesive album. 

Yet COADF is a missed opportunity in my view. Even though it made $$$, it's just not up to the iconic dance level it could have been. I find fans who are staunch defenders of COADF to lack critical thought of M's work. 

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16 hours ago, Ashley said:

Intersectionality was around, yet it was still in activists and academic circles. 

Among scholars, it started as a concept in black feminism, before LGBT issues in the late 90s. Vogue was recorded in 1989. It could never have been a topic when the song was released.

[Guest DeeperDeeper]

5 hours ago, discohub said:

Among scholars, it started as a concept in black feminism, before LGBT issues in the late 90s. Vogue was recorded in 1989. It could never have been a topic when the song was released.

It was. Combahee River Collective first introduced the concept in the 70s, so the idea was around in feminism in the 80s, then queer theory emerged in the early 90s. 

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7 hours ago, Ashley said:

It was. Combahee River Collective first introduced the concept in the 70s, so the idea was around in feminism in the 80s, then queer theory emerged in the early 90s. 

Haha that's exactly what I'm saying. The idea was around in certain specific, radical circles. Nowhere near M or the pop world. Remember how the Riot Grrrl movement was regarded, also remember how white they were.

The early 90s were all about Judith Butler and queer concepts. 

Except for scholars and intellectuals, intersectionality wasn't part of the conversation.

Don't rewrite history.

[Guest DeeperDeeper]

23 minutes ago, discohub said:

Haha that's exactly what I'm saying. The idea was around in certain specific, radical circles. Nowhere near M or the pop world. Remember how the Riot Grrrl movement was regarded, also remember how white they were.

The early 90s were all about Judith Butler and queer concepts. 

Except for scholars and intellectuals, intersectionality wasn't part of the conversation.

Don't rewrite history.

Not rewriting history. 

If you look back over the literature etc... intersectionality would have been floated around, like Peggy McIntosh's invisible Knapsack on white privilege, yet a platform like Tumblr didn't exist for it to act as a vector to cross over into the mainstream. 

 

 

[kesiak 3,040]

1 hour ago, Ashley said:

Not rewriting history. 

If you look back over the literature etc... intersectionality would have been floated around, like Peggy McIntosh's invisible Knapsack on white privilege, yet a platform like Tumblr didn't exist for it to act as a vector to cross over into the mainstream. 

 

 

You're sort of proving @discohub's point here 

[Guest DeeperDeeper]

28 minutes ago, kesiak said:

You're sort of proving @discohub's point here 

They have a grudge with me stemming from another thread. 

BUT Madonna could have easily made it more prominent that Luis Camacho and Jose Gutierez introduced her to Voguing from Harlem ballroom scene and that became the inspiration for the song, along with how black and latin gay men in those cultures were discriminated against for being both black/latin and queer. 

[PlayPause 2,693]

26 minutes ago, Ashley said:

They have a grudge with me stemming from another thread. 

Who ? What ? When ? Where ?

[EgoRod 5,481]

16 minutes ago, Ashley said:

They have a grudge with me stemming from another thread. 

BUT Madonna could have easily made it more prominent that Luis Camacho and Jose Gutierez introduced her to Voguing from Harlem ballroom scene and that became the inspiration for the song, along with how black and latin gay men in those cultures were discriminated against for being both black/latin and queer. 

I mean David Ian Xtravaganza have both of them touring with him in Japan promoting " Elements of Vogue" and bringing the ballroom scene there. This was fall of 1989.

Madonna discovered them in Paradise Garage in NY and the famous Love Ball

And Shep Pettibone is a genius or mixing and producing. But if you listen to "Elements of Vogue" you find few similarities, apart from borrowing both from Salsoul Orchestra's Ooh I love it (Love Break)'...lyrics:

"Give them face, give them body, walk in beat, strike a pose.
Serving fashion, 1990, elements of vogue."

House of Xtravanganza just featured on Vogue US along top models like Naomi Campbell and the Love Ball had main designers and artist involved, so the idea of being underground and not in the public eye is not precise.

 

 

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32 minutes ago, Ashley said:

BUT Madonna could have easily made it more prominent that Luis Camacho and Jose Gutierez introduced her to Voguing from Harlem ballroom scene and that became the inspiration for the song, along with how black and latin gay men in those cultures were discriminated against for being both black/latin and queer. 

Ahem. She took the stage every night on this for 6 months and then she made a movie about it, movie which is talked about after 30 years because it started the conversation about the representation of black and latin gay men. You're definitely seeing the other way round.

[EgoRod 5,481]

13 minutes ago, discohub said:

Ahem. She took the stage every night on this for 6 months and then she made a movie about it, movie which is talked about after 30 years because it started the conversation about the representation of black and latin gay men. You're definitely seeing the other way round.

In this Interview Jose, Kevin and Ollie comment on this, really interesting:

 

[Guest DeeperDeeper]

14 minutes ago, discohub said:

Ahem. She took the stage every night on this for 6 months and then she made a movie about it, movie which is talked about after 30 years because it started the conversation about the representation of black and latin gay men. You're definitely seeing the other way round.

Yeah in Truth or Dare - long after Vogue was released, she then had a controversy with Justify My Love video which depicted bisexuality (which you seem to deplore) - but she didn't talk explicitly about the experiences of the dancers and who they were and where they came from. 

Truth or Dare is a classic rock documentary - yet through modern optics it raises more questions than it answers.