Sinéad O'Connor, SNL 1992 'WAR'

[Blue Jean 15,972]

On 7/31/2023 at 10:22 AM, Starchild said:

Sinead embodied a true punk ethos that M wasn't capable of, because Sinead wasn't enslaved by her ego. Discuss.

I don't think that's true. I think what Sinead stood for was very different to Madonna. Read her letter to Miley Cyrus and you can see that her views around women's sexuality were stuck in the dark ages. I don't agree with what she was saying nor do I understand her choice to convert to Islam (after years of condemning the catholic church.)

So while she may have made some powerful statements early in her career there was a lack of consistency overall. Madonna I think has always been fairly consistent in what she believes and stands for. I suppose this difference has a lot to do with Sinead's mental health issues as she was really a tortured soul more than anything else. If anyone of the 2 were "enslaved" it was Sinead.

[Future Lover 1,011]

I am well aware that M's stance at the time was not out of line with most people's. I agree she looks at things in a more complex way than most. And it's because of that that I've always been a little disappointed that she didn't move against the groupthink and support a position that was radical but ultimately necessary. I think it's one of the few times where she truly put herself on the wrong side of history, and I can only hope her stance on it has changed in the years since. 

[Honey Little 4,472]

I almost always side with Madonna. The winning 🏅 side. And I am proud of it. Aside from some of the feats she has been involved in, I generally align with the Madonna.

[Fernando 439]

 

[Donna 17,484]

1 hour ago, Fernando said:

 

Thank you for sharing this!!  I posted this very video earlier in this thread.  Clearly, some want to turn this into Madonna VS. Sinead.  At the end of the day, Madonna respected Sinead.  She may have not agreed with how the executed things, but I'm sure Sinead thought similar of Madonna.  It's not a big deal.  Both are incredible artists who use their platform to speak their peace. Meanwhile, provided great music and messages.  All that matters.

[BuggedOut 4,128]

1 hour ago, Fernando said:

 

Thank you for sharing! 

[Donna 17,484]

20 hours ago, Future Lover said:

I am well aware that M's stance at the time was not out of line with most people's. I agree she looks at things in a more complex way than most. And it's because of that that I've always been a little disappointed that she didn't move against the groupthink and support a position that was radical but ultimately necessary. I think it's one of the few times where she truly put herself on the wrong side of history, and I can only hope her stance on it has changed in the years since. 

The more I think of it, I am not sure she was siding with anyone specific.  I think she was just trying to make a point that we should hold the ACTUAL people accountable.  But then again, it was SNL, so she probably just being cheeky, since that shows is known to mock people, friends or foe!!!

[Future Lover 1,011]

3 hours ago, tscott said:

The more I think of it, I am not sure she was siding with anyone specific.  I think she was just trying to make a point that we should hold the ACTUAL people accountable.  But then again, it was SNL, so she probably just being cheeky, since that shows is known to mock people, friends or foe!!!

That may have been her intent, but even still I think she should've had the forethought to see how it ultimately would be interpreted 

[Blue Jean 15,972]

She was shady toward Sinead, end of. Was it right? No. Does it matter? No. It was a very long time ago.

Go and read the letter Sinead wrote to Miley and then read Miley’s response. She literally mocked Sinead’s mental health as a retort. I bet she is not proud of that looking back. But I think people have a right to make mistakes without it being held against them many years later.

[Honey Little 4,472]

May her soul rise above reactive energy that exists in the world of Malchut.

[MikeyK 750]

On 7/31/2023 at 11:33 PM, Blue Jean said:

I don't think that's true. I think what Sinead stood for was very different to Madonna. Read her letter to Miley Cyrus and you can see that her views around women's sexuality were stuck in the dark ages. I don't agree with what she was saying nor do I understand her choice to convert to Islam (after years of condemning the catholic church.)

So while she may have made some powerful statements early in her career there was a lack of consistency overall. Madonna I think has always been fairly consistent in what she believes and stands for. I suppose this difference has a lot to do with Sinead's mental health issues as she was really a tortured soul more than anything else. If anyone of the 2 were "enslaved" it was Sinead.

And before converting to Islam she came out as a lesbian for a time. Then after that she married a(nother) man and there were the uncomfortably TMI-ish tweets about it, “can’t talk, cock in mouth” etc.

She was extremely talented and also extremely troubled, at times seemingly contradictory over the course of her life. She was human. A lot of people are like that.

The statement that is defining her career and fame here was powerful and incendiary, but there are better ways to honor her than pointing fingers at others whose responses weren’t perfect by people’s standards 30 years later.

[MikeyK 750]

7 hours ago, Future Lover said:

That may have been her intent, but even still I think she should've had the forethought to see how it ultimately would be interpreted 

Yes ok we’ve established that she should’ve had the foresight to think of how that that skit could have been interpreted on the internet 30 years later… So what now? You want her burned at the stake over it?

[Blue Jean 15,972]

Great article about Sinead that mentions Madonna:

https://www.abc.net.au/religion/glorious-rage-of-sinead-o-connor-rebecca-sheehan/102658162

[Mden 2,252]

After her mother’s death, Sinead took down a portrait  of the pope from the wall of her mother’s home in Dublin. This was the picture she tore on SNL. 

[Blue Jean 15,972]

4 hours ago, Mden said:

After her mother’s death, Sinead took down a portrait  of the pope from the wall of her mother’s home in Dublin. This was the picture she tore on SNL. 

That is interesting.

[into the erotico 994]

On 7/28/2023 at 8:30 PM, diegolcl said:

I... 

It sounds like you have a lot of anger and mixed feelings towards Madonna for "reasons". You should take some time and figure out what the hell this is before opening a topic with your "facts". (Let alone the fact that a woman's death triggered you to throw Madonna hate, I MEAN-).

it is true.. she stole my boyfriend in 1885. Are you kidding me ? I have a different opinion on this for years. I leave in real world so I don't need to have 'reasons' as you say.

[into the erotico 994]

On 7/29/2023 at 2:30 AM, tscott said:

Actually she did!  She did various interviews in 1993, after the SNL incident.  She claimed being abused in the Magdelene Laundries in Ireland which were run by Roman Catholics. I could give you links to various interviews from the time, but I'm sure you know how to use the "google" search engine.  Also, she explained her reasoning in an ET interview not even two weeks after the incident, which ET has conveniently uploaded on their Youtube channel.

Also, I wouldn't say people weren't aware of what was going on in the Catholic Churches back then, but most definitely, there was a lot of "sweeping things under the rug" going on.  It's not that it wasn't known; it's just the majority of the public wasn't comfortable talking about it. 

..'it's just the majority of the public wasn't comfortable talking about it. ' -  it is thrue Tscott. As Greecs, we knew what was happening.

[into the erotico 994]

On 7/29/2023 at 3:58 AM, Honey Little said:

I remember some magazine interview with Madonna in which she said Sinead O’Connor “is about as sexy as a cat run over by a lawnmower”. Personally, I thought it was hilarious. I think it was either Rolling Stone or Interview. But I can’t remember. I love when Madonna reads people.

..and yet you feel annoyed whrn some critic or the GP call Madonna old.

[into the erotico 994]

On 7/29/2023 at 3:10 AM, Alibaba said:

Madonna’s exact words at the time when asked: 

“I think there’s a better way to present her ideas rather than ripping up an image that means a lot to other people,” the American pop star said in an interview with Irish state RTE radio in Dublin.”If she’s against the Roman Catholic Church and she has a problem with them I think she should talk about it. I think you have to do more than denigrate a symbol.”

This was not a condemnation, nor did it question or imply a desire to demean the integrity of Sinead’s intentions. The Joey B reference is so radically decontextualized now because, aside from a Lifetime television movie legacy, there is no modern value to the story despite it being all-media-consuming at the time. I think Madonna was actually making fun of America’s stupid knee-jerk reactivity to any form of scandal, but unless she chooses to clarify her actions, we simply won’t know. 

Since Sinead’s tragic end this week I have seen multiple social media posts and news articles bringing up the notion that Madonna, along with people like Frank Sinatra, criticized Sinead and that no one ever supported her other than Kris Kristofferson. I don’t imagine supporting Sinead would have been easy given her temperament and her ideas. Sinead was a rebel and a true iconoclast, something she actually very much had in common with Madonna. They were very different political animals and represented different types of rebellion against the Catholic Church. I think it’s a shame that the discussion in today’s media isn’t more insightful in the exploration of how these public figures went about the business of making their points. Instead the typical misogynistic nonsense about how two female artist entertainers hated each other seems to be at the root of this moronic reemergence of a 30 year-old story in order to paint Sinead as a victim and rehash the stale, decades-old notion that Madonna has never had purposefulness or a mission statement, is a hypocrite, has always manipulated the public for the sake of a voracious and insatiable desire for publicity,  and therefore has no talent. This narrative has become rampant in recent years, only helped further by Madonna’s own perceived distaste for the past and the value of her legacy outside of whatever she has chosen to represent herself as since 2021. Rather than waiting for Madonna to right the wrongs of her own history rewrites (yes, she has been quite impassioned about this in recent years with this cartoonish veneer that seems allergic to depth or context, and it isn’t because she is recovering from illness that she shouldn’t be held to task), we have to know the history, and be more vocal when the narrative needs correcting. It’s becoming so absurd how much Madonna is being written out of the annals of modern popular culture. Before we know it she will be considered no more than a glorified Cilla Black or a Cher wannabe. 

'I think there’s a better way to present her ideas rather than ripping up an image that means a lot to other people,” the American pop star said in an interview with Irish state RTE radio in Dublin.”If she’s against the Roman Catholic Church and she has a problem with them I think she should talk about it. I think you have to do more than denigrate a symbol.”..'

do you remember when Madonna gave an interview in NYT along with her director in which she said that tha black actor played the role of Christ in this video? she was having sex with him.Or how offending were the burning crosses were  to the Christians? or the wide criticism that she used religion in order to sell her image/rebelious product? ot her interview in RL in which she remembered that she saw a couple that was having sex inside a church? wasn't that offending? 

..' Instead the typical misogynistic nonsense about how two female artist entertainers hated each other seems to be at the root of this moronic reemergence of a 30 year-old story in order to paint Sinead as a victim and rehash the stale, decades-old notion that Madonna has never had purposefulness or a mission statement, is a hypocrite, has always manipulated the public for the sake of a voracious and insatiable desire for publicity..' did i said something like that? 

I have a different opinion on this story?

[A. A. Aardvark 4,889]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases

[DiegoLCL 5,212]

4 hours ago, into the erotico said:

it is true.. she stole my boyfriend in 1885. Are you kidding me ? I have a different opinion on this for years. I leave in real world so I don't need to have 'reasons' as you say.

 

Sorry to be rude, but I have no other way of saying it: You are stupid. And you clearly have issues with Madonna and it's "a choice" that you spend so much time and effort making them public when you're not even open to discussing it with people. You just want to vomit your "truth" and feel entitled because you "think differently".

[into the erotico 994]

3 hours ago, diegolcl said:

 

Sorry to be rude, but I have no other way of saying it: You are stupid. And you clearly have issues with Madonna and it's "a choice" that you spend so much time and effort making them public when you're not even open to discussing it with people. You just want to vomit your "truth" and feel entitled because you "think differently".

you live in a fantastic world. You don't know me. I have bought her products. I am not a Fan-natic as you are. I have the right to voice my opinion, as you do. You are entitled and offensive to me. I dont worship anyone as you do. You see things black or white. You characterize yourself.

[Alibaba 1,531]

9 hours ago, into the erotico said:

'I think there’s a better way to present her ideas rather than ripping up an image that means a lot to other people,” the American pop star said in an interview with Irish state RTE radio in Dublin.”If she’s against the Roman Catholic Church and she has a problem with them I think she should talk about it. I think you have to do more than denigrate a symbol.”..'

do you remember when Madonna gave an interview in NYT along with her director in which she said that tha black actor played the role of Christ in this video? she was having sex with him.Or how offending were the burning crosses were  to the Christians? or the wide criticism that she used religion in order to sell her image/rebelious product? ot her interview in RL in which she remembered that she saw a couple that was having sex inside a church? wasn't that offending? 

..' Instead the typical misogynistic nonsense about how two female artist entertainers hated each other seems to be at the root of this moronic reemergence of a 30 year-old story in order to paint Sinead as a victim and rehash the stale, decades-old notion that Madonna has never had purposefulness or a mission statement, is a hypocrite, has always manipulated the public for the sake of a voracious and insatiable desire for publicity..' did i said something like that? 

I have a different opinion on this story?

And you are welcome to your different opinion, but you’d actually have to express it for anyone to understand it. Maybe you did express it before, but I don’t recall it. My post certainly wasn’t specifically in response to anything you said. 

Offending people based upon dissecting moral code dictated by dogma that is intolerant and hypocritical is always welcome in my eyes, whether that be through Sinéad’s intelligent, sensitive and sometimes primal choices of expression of rebellion, or Madonna’s storytelling approach. Madonna has always been a deconstructionist of myth by retelling stories in ways that reflect her point of view. She has always left room for the audience to make up their own minds, which is a more traditionally visual artistic trajectory. Sinéad came from the tradition of protest musicians. They have both been effective agitators.
 

Personally, I’m not adherent to group think, and so I’m not entirely sure what you are trying to say here, especially as a Madonna fan on a Madonna forum. If you fundamentally disagree with the concept of offensiveness in art being an agent for socio-cultural and political change, you must find a lot of Madonna’s message throughout her formative years as a public figure unappealing, no? Again, I’m not understanding your perspective and so I don’t mean to project, but I look forward to hearing more from you. 

[Starchild 3,190]

On 8/5/2023 at 4:05 AM, diegolcl said:

Sorry to be rude, but I have no other way of saying it: You are stupid. And you clearly have issues with Madonna and it's "a choice" that you spend so much time and effort making them public when you're not even open to discussing it with people. You just want to vomit your "truth" and feel entitled because you "think differently".

You think it's okay to call @into the erotico stupid, or anyone for that matter? Nah. Reported.

[RUADJAI 15,310]

On 8/4/2023 at 2:05 PM, diegolcl said:

 

Sorry to be rude, but I have no other way of saying it: You are stupid. And you clearly have issues with Madonna and it's "a choice" that you spend so much time and effort making them public when you're not even open to discussing it with people. You just want to vomit your "truth" and feel entitled because you "think differently".

Please find a way to disagree without name calling.