Camille Paglia: "Madonna must stop competing with younger women"

[LetThemEatCake 6]

Thank you. At least SOMEONE gets it.

Madonna fans and an intellect are few and far between.

 

I know, the imbeciles were mocking Camille's appearance and calling her desperate saying she was in need of attention and what not, beyond pathetic. 

[Guest]

I know, the imbeciles were mocking Camille's appearance and calling her desperate saying she was in need of attention and what not, beyond pathetic. 

It's what cult members so, who have been so brainwashed that they can't think objectively anymore and just react emotionally and attack someone who criticizes.

 

It is the height of emotional immaturity but to be expected in the age of social media and instant gratification. 

[NowRadiate 3,331]

if anyone should be allowed to criticize a public figure in a socio-philosophical manner, it should be Camille Paglia.

I certainly do not agree with everything she says but she makes some valid points about (post-)feminism in general. smart woman.

not sure she is always 100% right about madonna though.

 

as was stated above, the point is being missed here.

there is an element to her statement that is worth thinking about.

 

the question that comes up for me:

is madonna really competing with younger artists, and if yes, in which way?

 

if you look at it from a commercial point if view; yes, she is definitely competing against any other music artist out there as there is only a certain amount of money to grasp from audiences. and that competition will include younger female artists, but not exclusively.

 

if you look at it from a socio-political point of view; yes, there is competition to a certain extent. any female celeb can serve as role model for women in many respects. they influence people's way of thinking, the way the act, dress and speak.

in that sense, yes, madonna is facing competition although she already has the status of a pioneer.

 

the thing i would disagree with is that madonna might be consciously competing with younger female artists in this respect.

 

also, when it comes to looks, i don't think she is competing with younger artists, she is competing with nature. she wants to look her best. as any female celeb does.

and this might be what most fans seem to take from paglia's comments about madonna: "she is trying to look younger than she is, and she is trying to kill younger female's careers (like Gaga's)". 

 

there's more to paglia however.

she is definitely worth a (critical) read.

[Guest]

Amen.

 

 

Madonna has never had competition. Many have tried but they could never reach her level.

She was always on top and never let it slip...until she got divorce, turned 50 and started to save Malawi.

Music and music videos took a back seat. Perhaps she got sick and tired of it. No doubt Kabbalah has been a cause of it too.

 

In the vacuum left by Madonna's brief step away from the music, in swooped the Beyonces and Gagas to take the stage. Ironically they are all patterned after Madonna who now feels she needs to compete to show the kids she is still relevant, kids who have no clue what she has done.

 

She will have the last laugh when the kids grow up and realize the treasures she has left them to discover.

 

Confessions Tour is the last great Madonna spectacle. MDNA and Rebel Heart had great moments but 2006 was the end of an era to me.

[LetThemEatCake 6]

if anyone should be allowed to criticize a public figure in a socio-philosophical manner, it should be Camille Paglia.

I certainly do not agree with everything she says but she makes some valid points about (post-)feminism in general. smart woman.

not sure she is always 100% right about madonna though.

 

as was stated above, the point is being missed here.

there is an element to her statement that is worth thinking about.

 

the question that comes up for me:

is madonna really competing with younger artists, and if yes, in which way?

 

if you look at it from a commercial point if view; yes, she is definitely competing against any other music artist out there as there is only a certain amount of money to grasp from audiences. and that competition will include younger female artists, but not exclusively.

 

if you look at it from a socio-political point of view; yes, there is competition to a certain extent. any female celeb can serve as role model for women in many respects. they influence people's way of thinking, the way the act, dress and speak.

in that sense, yes, madonna is facing competition although she already has the status of a pioneer.

 

the thing i would disagree with is that madonna might be consciously competing with younger female artists in this respect.

 

also, when it comes to looks, i don't think she is competing with younger artists, she is competing with nature. she wants to look her best. as any female celeb does.

and this might be what most fans seem to take from paglia's comments about madonna: "she is trying to look younger than she is, and she is trying to kill younger female's careers (like Gaga's)". 

 

there's more to paglia however.

she is definitely worth a (critical) read.

 

Camille Paglia is 100% right though, she bases her opinions on facts, like every intelligent person will do, and facts can't be wrong, they just are.

 

I think there is confusion as to what "competition" entails. Madonna definitely is competing with the new generation, she is no longer ahead and she has relinquished her superior position to try and play with the newbies, it's just a fact, otherwise why would she enlist Nicki Minaj, Miley Candida Tongue Cyrus and all the other repulsive horde. 

[NowRadiate 3,331]

Camille Paglia is 100% right though, she bases her opinions on facts, like every intelligent person will do, and facts can't be wrong, they just are.

 

I think there is confusion as to what "competition" entails. Madonna definitely is competing with the new generation, she is no longer ahead and she has relinquished her superior position to try and play with the newbies, it's just a fact, otherwise why would she enlist Nicki Minaj, Miley Candida Tongue Cyrus and all the other repulsive horde. 

 

Although extreme, I tend to agree with most of what you say here.

[Guest]

Camille Paglia isn't 100% correct.  Just because you might agree with her, doesn't make her right.  She's entitled to her opinion, but that's all it is, "her opinion".  It has nothing to do with lacking intelligence if one disagrees with her stance here.  Everyone lives to a certain standard.  Some are all about growing old gracefully while others will stop at nothing to look and be perfect.  Then we have many who are in between.  What one might find perfect or awful could be the complete opposite for another. It's simply subjective.  To me, there aren't rules to how one grows older. Though, society tends to think there are rules of growing old and how one should act and appear. 

 

So does this mean I think Madonna has it right?  Not at all! I simply see a woman living her life the way she chooses.  I think most people do, but we all also tend to get roped into how society expects us to age.

[Fighter 28,798]

I know who Camille Paglia is and i do not care for her. To me she fits neatly into a type of contrarian that I just don't care for. A faux intellectual very often, with generalizations about groups of people, tinted by personal experiences rather than truly objective observations.

 

It's hilarious that certain people are insulting those who don't agree with her and yet they're accusing Madonna fans of being cultists who insult others who criticize Madonna? Come on, True Intellectualismâ„¢! let's get contradictory?

 

 

If Miss Camille can constantly mock Madonna in the press (Daily Mail of all places, YIKES) for not agreeing with her views or lifestyle or the idiotic "ageing gracefully" rhetoric, then you can expect fans not to like her, especially when we don't subscribe to those ideas (I know I dont) and I don't care to hear that from anybody because I find it repulsive, sue me. 

Plus this whole Madonna is a hypocrite about female solidarity because she "never wanted to meet with me", YIKES. I'm getting Elton John vibes of "I like you but i'm not getting attention so i'll talk some shit". It's very that.

 

Take this for instance:

 

“In her struggles to stay relevant, Madonna has debased herself with adolescent, pitifully inept Instagrams that cannot compete with Rihanna’s brilliant work in that genre,”

 

I'm glad Rihanna is doing great in the "genre" of Instagram. LMAO. How is this helpful or intellectual or socio philosophical in the big scheme of things? and comparing her and pitting her against another female sure comes across like true feminism.... Imagine if she just wants to have instagram to have fun and keep in contact with her fans and relax a bit after 30 years? The audacity. Do I think she's made a few mistakes in there? sure it's been a rough spot, but don't use that as leverage for your "intellectualism". It's like looking for an excuse for a public personal putdown using your academic credentials as a vehicle. Surely there are bigger fish to fry in this day and age. There are a billion other examples of these very "intellectual" remarks she's made about Madonna. Imagine thinking it's your "job" as an "influential feminist writer" and intellectual, to drag an artist/celebrity on the tabloids. No thank you, i'll be over here being un-intellectual instead. 

 

and @@patriziagucci I mean @@LetThemEatCake maybe you shouldn't talk about imbeciles when you're a twice (2 times) banned troll account, 3 times if we count now. But I'm just saying. 

[Guest]

I don't agree with everything Paglia says, I still love her.

I don't agree with everything Madonna does. I still love her.

It's possible.

 

Paglia has been educating kids in art school for over 40 years, she has a PhD in English and Humanities, she has spent a lifetime studying. I respect her rigorous intellect and her opinions on art and culture. 

 

I have my own mind, my own opinions. I do not follow a herd or a cult.

It's important to have informed opinions about things. Fine, disagree with Paglia but read her books and listen to her first. Don't just emotionally react to someone to defend your demi-god.

 

Instagram IS a modern digital museum and is indeed fast becoming a genre. Look at artist Richard Prince who has displayed giant instagrams for his latest exhibitions.

 

Dear old M is photoshopping her instagrams to promote her skincare line...she has diminished her mystique by posting endless bathroom selfies...it's clear her gay aesthete brother Christopher Ciccone was making all the artistic decisions back in the day

[Fighter 28,798]

I don't agree with everything Paglia says, I still love her.

I don't agree with everything Madonna does. I still love her.

It's possible.

 

Paglia has been educating kids in art school for over 40 years, she has a PhD in English and Humanities, she has spent a lifetime studying. I respect her rigorous intellect and her opinions on art and culture. 

 

I have my own mind, my own opinions. I do not follow a herd or a cult.

It's important to have informed opinions about things. Fine, disagree with Paglia but read her books and listen to her first. Don't just emotionally react to someone to defend your demi-god.

 

Instagram IS a modern digital museum and is indeed fast becoming a genre. Look at artist Richard Prince who has displayed giant instagrams for his latest exhibitions.

 

Dear old M is photoshopping her instagrams to promote her skincare line...she has diminished her mystique by posting endless bathroom selfies...it's clear her gay aesthete brother Christopher Ciccone was making all the artistic decisions back in the day

 

 

Whatever else she does has nothing to do with her "stan twitter" level of petty critiques of Madonna, which shouldn't be passed off as intellectualism. I'm not gonna put her down either for what she has achieved in her life though, good for her. 

 

I certainly don't worship Madonna. I have criticized Madonna for her instagram blunders among other things but I'm a fan and I like to kiki about things like that from time to time among fans, but if I were an influential writer with a long career I certainly wouldn't be dragging Madonna (or anyone else) every few months for stuff like this in the media, fan or not.

 

Let's not get too pretentious. Instagram is just a social media app. Social media is really not that deep, it's mostly bullshit. She can use it in whatever way she wants. No one says Beyonce or whoever is diminishing themselves for posting selfies or having fun on social media. Everyone is doing it, why can't she? It's not that deep. Because she ISN'T a God, she doesn't need to maintain any kind of mystique if she doesn't want to. People have always criticized her for thinking so highly of herself but the moment she puts her guard down and humanizes herself people think she's wrecking herself? Maybe she thinks of herself as a person and wants to do fun things like everyone else. It's damned if you do and damned if you don't with her.

 

We don't know what Christopher brought to the table, but we're not in the 90's anymore, Dorothy. The world changes, customs change, styles change, mediums change, aesthetic changes constantly. If you don't like what she does now, then it doesn't mean she's clueless. 

 

I have always thought the Photoshop subject is ridiculous. People have always used airbrushing in pictures. Some of her most famous and iconic pictures are airbrushed.  It's an illusion, it's photography, it's fashion, it's art, it's not realistic and it doesn't necessarily have to be. It's like now that she's older people won't allow her to use photoshop. oh awlright 

 

We all have our own mind and our own opinions, so let's not insult each other and agree to disagree.

[Guest]

I don't agree with everything Paglia says, I still love her.

I don't agree with everything Madonna does. I still love her.

It's possible.

 

Paglia has been educating kids in art school for over 40 years, she has a PhD in English and Humanities, she has spent a lifetime studying. I respect her rigorous intellect and her opinions on art and culture. 

 

I have my own mind, my own opinions. I do not follow a herd or a cult.

It's important to have informed opinions about things. Fine, disagree with Paglia but read her books and listen to her first. Don't just emotionally react to someone to defend your demi-god.

 

Instagram IS a modern digital museum and is indeed fast becoming a genre. Look at artist Richard Prince who has displayed giant instagrams for his latest exhibitions.

 

Dear old M is photoshopping her instagrams to promote her skincare line...she has diminished her mystique by posting endless bathroom selfies...it's clear her gay aesthete brother Christopher Ciccone was making all the artistic decisions back in the day

I don't know about you, but I come here first and foremost to appreciate and celebrate Madonna.  But of course, I must make clear, I'm not saying that we all must agree and love everything she does, but it seems if I don't say that, I'll be labeled as "following a herd" or "cult".  How ridiculous is that!?!?  And frankly, I'm sick and tired that some of us must defend ourselves for actually being a Madonna fan!! Last I checked, this IS a Madonna forum.  So pardon me or others who may actually find what Camille says as a crock of... opinions. I definitely have a mind of my own and while I love Madonna as an entertainer, I know she has her faults. The difference is; I honestly don't give two shits about them. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter!  It's not why I'm a fan.  How dare I enjoy her work as an entertainer.  And how dare I enjoy her as a person... or the person she projects to the world. Is she perfect?  Not at all!  But again, it's not something I fret about or think too much about where I must criticize her for.  While I welcome opposing opinions, but what I find offensive is how some here will come in and slag off people for simply being a Madonna fan.  Call them "sheep" or say they are part of a "cult" because they prefer not to dissect SUBJECTIVE imperfections. So once again, for anyone who wants to come in here and pounce on me for either not accepting other opinions or being "sheepish".... baaaaaaaa!  (That's "screw you" in Ovis Aries terms).  My apologies to administration if I stepped on any toes here, but I'm just sick and tired of certain individuals who rarely come in to even talk about what they enjoy of Madonna,  only to put fans down simply because they defend her.  It's just insane to me because this is a Madonna forum first and foremost, so one would expect passionate and appreciative fans before all the criticisms.  Certainly, I agree that constructive criticism comes along with being an entertainer, but when people go after the fans for being fans, it's going too far!! 

[artlover 3,971]

Ok, time to educate the morons.

 

As a lifelong fan of BOTH Madonna and Camille Puglia, I can tell you Paglia was one of the earliest madonna fans, championing her from the start. She fell in love with her after watching Burning Up on MTV. THAT is how far back her admiration and respect for Madonna goes.

 

Just because you criticize someone doesn't mean you hate them. She is a self-described "True Blue Madonna fan for life". I've had e-mail conversations with Camille and enjoyed gossiping about Madonna with her but I can guarantee you she is a fan and hails Madonna videos as modern works of high art.

 

Camille IS correct and those of us of a certain age and intellect can see CLEARLY M is trying to catch the younger market, which is something she has ALWAYS done which is also why her fan base has such diverse age ranges. Unfortunately she failed to grab this new generation of teens / twenty-somethings on time which is why Gaga swooped in and took them. (Then again where are those fans now?) Just look at Bitch I'm Madonna, arguably the worst thing she has done in her career (ranks way lower than Can't Stop for me and that is saying something.)

She has almost sacrificed the fans that have been with her from the beginning in favour of trying to get the approval of her daughters generation. They will get it eventually as they mature and look back and realize what they missed once the stars they admire have inevitably burned themselves out and been forgotten. 

 

Camille is a genius. Madonna is a genius, I love them both, and can criticize both. Nothing wrong with that.

 

Thanks for that. Camille has written LOTS of relevant and important academic essays and everything. Being a huge fan of Madonna as I am it doesn't make me blind to not criticize her when I think it's pertinent and I do the same with all my idols including Camille Paglia. 

I have a lot of points where I don't agree with her but it doesn't make her a hater or someone who doesn't deserve some respect.

[Guest]

Thanks for that. Camille has written LOTS of relevant and important academic essays and everything. Being a huge fan of Madonna as I am it doesn't make me blind to not criticize her when I think it's pertinent and I do the same with all my idols including Camille Paglia. 

I have a lot of points where I don't agree with her but it doesn't make her a hater or someone who doesn't deserve some respect.

@@Fighter... Are these all the same people with duplicate accounts, responding to each other?  LOL!   

[Guest]

Last time I will defend Paglia and myself:

 

Paglia has been a HARDCORE Madonna fan before some of you were born which means she has every right to critique. She was there from the beginning and teaches the genius of Madonna in her classes. In her defense, the PRESS quote and misquote and rehash old things. Paglia is far too busy to be "constantly" beating on Madonna.

She buys her records, she enjoys them. She goes to concerts. She happens to be a public figure whom the press punches upon for the slightest thing. She's a fellow fan, like US.

 

I have been a Madonna fan for over almost 30 years, since I was a little kid. I have followed her around the world, she is the soundtrack to my life. It's in my bones. I don't hate on fans, I hate on ignorance and mindless reactivity. I am all for opinions and differing opinions as long as they are informed.

 

Prove to me why Paglia is wrong on modern Madonna. 

[Fighter 28,798]

She has every right to critique but blasting her on tabloids using her academic credentials as platform is tacky and is her choice.

 

Nothing she says about Madonna is new, philosophical or intellectual. It's all stuff that could be lifted from messy stan twitter drama accounts. "lol rihanna better" "plastic surgery lolz" "ageing gracefully" "tragic" "embarrasing" "irrelevant" "not classy". Is she trying to win the petty Twitter stan bingo? 

 

I certainly won't have respect for people who spew rhetoric that i find ugly or stupid. And that's all there is to it. We can agree to disagree, but I wasn't the one insulting ya'll. I wasn't even really "defending" Madonna initially, I just said Camille is not an intellectual with these comments and ya'll flipped. 

[Fighter 28,798]

@@Fighter... Are these all the same people with duplicate accounts, responding to each other?  LOL!   

 

Probably not. Let's not get into those accusations lol

[MXRXNCHX 1,126]

Patrizia Gucci returned? How did I missed this? 

[me1981 1,358]

Madonna is a totally fascinating human being, on so many levels. She is discussed (especially by Camille) the way the great thinkers/social activists and leaders of ours and other times are, that results in not only praise but criticism, maybe Camille has been unfair on Madonna, but then isn't it more interesting to debate those points than dismiss them and learn nothing more than what we already know?

 

Despite appearances to the contrary, Camille looks up to Madonna and always has, which is why her criticisms are so biting at times. Just like us fans. 

 

To get a little off track and go off on a tangent; 

 

We honestly have stagnated as a global society because we refuse to have the difficult discussions and debates, instead resorting to simply trying to shut down any conversation that we don't agree with and it is making us regress socially. 

 

Thankfully there are those who are able to have respectful, logical, rational debates, even if they sit on different sides of the fence. Make the effort to listen (read) the opposite view and truly take it in, instead of simply trying to figure a way to prove that person wrong. Society seems so obssessed with shredding someone for their opinion, but the detrimental effect of that is a split society, both of which live in an echo chamber of ideaologies, to progress we need to be fearless enough to challange our own ideas and beliefs.

 

It is not to the advantage to simply be right all the time, which is all anyone seems to care about anymore. 

 

Camille may be right, she may be wrong or somewhere in the middle. The discussion here that debates those points is far more interesting and informative and enlightening than the derision of Camille, which really amounts to nothing.

[LikeAMelody 728]

Maybe what should stop is people "seeing" Madonna as competing with younger women.

 

That is their creation drawn from their beliefs on what every woman's role is based on their age.

 

Ironically today I see more pressure than ever before to abide by your given script. ....and this is coming from liberal minded people.