Singles... if Erotica never received damage control treatment

[Markdonna 692]

On 10/9/2023 at 5:01 PM, chaosmen1984mk said:

That first single definitely totally changed the opinion that many people had of her. Madonna's change was so radical that it took many by surprise and they ended up distancing themselves from her as her new image did not coincide with the way they had always seen life.

Something similar happened to Christina Aguilera when she released the song Dirrty, which would be something like the Erotica version of the new century. She also wanted to promote women's sexual freedom but many did not understand the message and ended up stoning her with their criticism. Stripped was a wonderful album but like the Erotica album it ended up overshadowed by scandal.

Inevitable side effects when artists decide to put aside their successful careers in favor of changing the social reality of minorities, such as in this case the sexual freedom of women.

I don’t think EROTICA shocked people nearly as much as JUSTIFY MY LOVE did a few years earlier.  But SEX shocked seemingly everybody.  So much so that the album simply got lost in the over the top drama of far too many vapid journalist all clutching their pearls in unison like prissy old maids from 1812.

[Markdonna 692]

Damage Control be damned!  With all the LOVE that Erotica got on tonight’s setlist it would seem that Madonna is standing by both the album and her single choices…. Erotica (album version), Bad Girl, and Fever!!

Even In This Life got a moment to shine.

Thank You, M!

[GhostOrchid 702]

On 10/12/2023 at 4:46 PM, Drownedboy said:

So Pat Leonard is not a magical creator of melodies and phenomenal musician? Some of Madonna´s best and most legendary work was with him, like it or not, and Madame x or Erotica are not among her most beloved and iconic material, if you go outside her fans zone. Erotica might me peerless, but melodically it pales next to another phenomenal records of hers. 

But yes, melodically I´m sure she is able of create good music too. I was not saying the oposite.

Oh, also, when I spoke about her best songs I never mentioned Vogue, cause it´s an amazing dance pop song, brilliantly produced and sung but melodically it is not frozen either, you know.

Madonna chooses a collaborator based on what she wants to achieve with a particular song/recording. She wanted catchy pop- she got Pat on board. She wanted raw material with deep beats- she told Pettibone how she wanted it done. 

Melodies are Madonna's own, as confirmed by almost everyone she ever worked with, and the lack of them on Erotica was a deliberate choice. Pat is an amazing musician and collaborator, but he was also lucky that those were the type of songs she wanted at the time.

[Drownedboy 1,677]

4 minutes ago, GhostOrchid said:

Madonna chooses a collaborator based on what she wants to achieve with a particular song/recording. She wanted catchy pop- she got Pat on board. She wanted raw material with deep beats- she told Pettibone how she wanted it done. 

Melodies are Madonna's own, as confirmed by almost everyone she ever worked with, and the lack of them on Erotica was a deliberate choice. Pat is an amazing musician and collaborator, but he was also lucky that those were the type of songs she wanted at the time.

Yes i agree, except for the part Melodies are Madonna´s own. From what I´ve reading, a lot of time she took for example Pat´s music and did an amazing lyric to it. But who knows how each song got created.

[GhostOrchid 702]

15 minutes ago, Drownedboy said:

But who knows how each song got created.

True, except we do know based on the interviews her collaborators gave over the years. 

Especially Pat who elaborated on every single song they did together, there's a recent interview on youtube when he was promoting his Madonna-inspired live shows. Yes, he would start with something on his piano, but she would lay a melody over it.

[Drownedboy 1,677]

6 minutes ago, GhostOrchid said:

True, except we do know based on the interviews her collaborators gave over the years. 

Especially Pat who elaborated on every single song they did together, there's a recent interview on youtube when he was promoting his Madonna-inspired live shows. Yes, he would start with something on his piano, but she would lay a melody over it.

And so, in my opinion, in terms of musical richness, not style, rythm or visual..her albums with Pat were among her bests, and better than albums like Erotica or Madame x. And I think many fans and critics around the world would agree. 

[Markdonna 692]

And I think many — would not agree.  

[GhostOrchid 702]

2 minutes ago, Drownedboy said:

And so, in my opinion, in terms of musical richness, not style, rythm or visual..her albums with Pat were among her bests, and better than albums like Erotica or Madame x. And I think many fans and critics around the world would agree. 

Oh I agree with you, my favorite producers are Pat and Shep. True Blue, LAP and ROL are in my top 5.

I'm just saying that it's not entirely due to his musical genius. She wanted those kind of songs and he was there.

Imagine that back in 1992 she told Shep -"listen, i want 14 songs of Vogue and Rescue Me, I want to rule the charts and pop radio".  He would now be the most celebrated person by those same fans.

[Drownedboy 1,677]

After Tonight I agree Bad girl is much better than I remebered. But in this life, sorry, I can´t with that one.

[James19709 351]

On 10/2/2023 at 12:01 AM, Nahash said:

So many missed opportunities with this tour... which had it all to just beat BAT effortlessly... but guess she was more than tired by then... And by tired, I mean tired for everything...

I've always thought TGS was so much better than BAT tbh

[Donna 16,457]

11 minutes ago, James19709 said:

I've always thought TGS was so much better than BAT tbh

I think of them as almost two different entities.  I feel BAT was highly theatrical while TGS was more of a rock concert.  Certainly, she brought some theatrics to the latter.  Also, I will say; TGS seemed to me as one of her best tours vocally.  I'm sure she had some bum notes here and there, but more than not her vocals seem to be top notch on the girlie show.

[James19709 351]

13 minutes ago, McDonna said:

I think of them as almost two different entities.  I feel BAT was highly theatrical while TGS was more of a rock concert.  Certainly, she brought some theatrics to the latter.  Also, I will say; TGS seemed to me as one of her best tours vocally.  I'm sure she had some bum notes here and there, but more than not her vocals seem to be top notch on the girlie show.

Yeah, I love her vocals on Rain / Just My Imagination from the DVD especially. BAT has never quite hit the mark for me completely. Parts of it I love, parts I don't really care for. I know it's "iconic" but I care more about quality and realistically it wasn't a masterpiece of a show to me although she did progress from WTG to BAT. TGS is where it all came together for me. I can't rank her shows now though because I'm too aware that the editing process will elevate some shows and the reality can't have been the same experience. So in terms of the actual releases Confessions has to be my fav, irl who knows

[Donna 16,457]

2 minutes ago, James19709 said:

Yeah, I love her vocals on Rain / Just My Imagination from the DVD especially. BAT has never quite hit the mark for me completely. Parts of it I love, parts I don't really care for. I know it's "iconic" but I care more about quality and realistically it wasn't a masterpiece of a show to me although she did progress from WTG to BAT. TGS is where it all came together for me. I can't rank her shows now though because I'm too aware that the editing process will elevate some shows and the reality can't have been the same experience. So in terms of the actual releases Confessions has to be my fav, irl who knows

I'll probably always rank BAT higher than TGS because it was the first time I saw her live and it really had a great setlist that most everyone can enjoy.  She was definitely at the height of her career at that point and it is far more well known than TGS, but of course the latter really stands out vocally for me.  And there are some pretty damn cool moments in that show such as Justify My Love, Everybody, Express Yourself and as you stated Rain/Just My Imagination.  For me, it's hard to pick a favorite because on each tour there is a huge highlight for me.  It's like albums. There isn't an album of hers I don't like, because on each tour or album, there is always numerous stellar songs/performances that I enjoy so much.  A lot of fans hate the Hard Candy album and while I can admit it's not up there with some of her earlier albums, it's still an album I greatly enjoy!

[James19709 351]

Just now, McDonna said:

I'll probably always rank BAT higher than TGS because it was the first time I saw her live and it really had a great setlist that most everyone can enjoy.  She was definitely at the height of her career at that point and it is far more well known than TGS, but of course the latter really stands out vocally for me.  And there are some pretty damn cool moments in that show such as Justify My Love, Everybody, Express Yourself and as you stated Rain/Just My Imagination.  For me, it's hard to pick a favorite because on each tour there is a huge highlight for me.  It's like albums. There isn't an album of hers I don't like, because on each tour or album, there is always numerous stellar songs/performances that I enjoy so much.  A lot of fans hate the Hard Candy album and while I can admit it's not up there with some of her earlier albums, it's still an album I greatly enjoy!

Maybe if BAT had been remastered and released later on I'd feel more about it but that's probably never gonna happen Although TGS didn't need any of that digital wizardry for me to love it all the way through I guess. I'm having fun revisiting tons of eras today and learning about things I probably knew years ago but forgot like cancelled singles and original album tracklists and things. Always been obsessed with M but I took a few years away mainly because I didn't like Madame X at all. I still enjoyed that concert film though! She does create enjoyable shows and imagery regardless of the music but I do think lyrically and sometimes musically she took a nosedive. And now I'm older I can't really care for the bulk of Hard Candy or MDNA because I just think they exist for the sake of it for the most part. They feel redundant. I feel progression watching Celebration: The Video Collection but I feel if it continued from there I don't need the rest of it. She became more about the shows I think.

[James19709 351]

@McDonnaFor example I like 4 Minutes sonically but it's about nothing, it's kinda silly haha

[Donna 16,457]

3 minutes ago, James19709 said:

@McDonnaFor example I like 4 Minutes sonically but it's about nothing, it's kinda silly haha

Yeah, I agree there were better songs on that album than this, but I get why this was the lead single.  It had a generic yet universal message.  Some of the biggest songs are usually universal messaged songs that aren't always profound and deep.  Look at "Holiday".  It's simply a fun dance song about taking a holiday.  It's not very deep, but it's very universal.  People can relate to it very much.  Those are the type of songs that record companies look for when releasing a single because they are trying to reach beyond just the fan base.  So picking radio friendly songs used to be the norm, especially for younger and popular artists which radio usually caters to.

[James19709 351]

23 minutes ago, McDonna said:

Yeah, I agree there were better songs on that album than this, but I get why this was the lead single.  It had a generic yet universal message.  Some of the biggest songs are usually universal messaged songs that aren't always profound and deep.  Look at "Holiday".  It's simply a fun dance song about taking a holiday.  It's not very deep, but it's very universal.  People can relate to it very much.  Those are the type of songs that record companies look for when releasing a single because they are trying to reach beyond just the fan base.  So picking radio friendly songs used to be the norm, especially for younger and popular artists which radio usually caters to.

It just doesn't work for me at this age for another album cycle. I really do think she should have stopped with all of that retreading similar vague concepts. "Give Me All Your Luvin'", "Girl Gone Wild", "Turn Up the Radio". I just can't with that stuff. She did enough of that and she did it very well but we didn't need more of that. It really is jarring to reach that part of her videography. It's been 15 years and I still think Celebration wouldn't need anything more added to it past the title track, nothing that came after could be added and increase the quality of it whatsoever imo. It was extremely smart timing to release that honestly. I think it was her last release under Warner and that's probably why it exists but still it really did work out extremely well as a product.

[Donna 16,457]

53 minutes ago, James19709 said:

It just doesn't work for me at this age for another album cycle. I really do think she should have stopped with all of that retreading similar vague concepts. "Give Me All Your Luvin'", "Girl Gone Wild", "Turn Up the Radio". I just can't with that stuff. She did enough of that and she did it very well but we didn't need more of that. It really is jarring to reach that part of her videography. It's been 15 years and I still think Celebration wouldn't need anything more added to it past the title track, nothing that came after could be added and increase the quality of it whatsoever imo. It was extremely smart timing to release that honestly. I think it was her last release under Warner and that's probably why it exists but still it really did work out extremely well as a product.

Unfortunately, her teaming up with Interscope didn't help her music catalog.  It doesn't help that she and her management was left to the promotion pretty much on their own.  MDNA had a good opportunity with the Superbowl, but then after that the singles just were pused aside and the focus was majorly on the tour.  I understand though because she was getting at the point the mainstream formats that used to play her music wasn't willing to play and promote her anymore. So now, she had to rely more on touring, which she had already been doing for several years now.  I personally have no issue with the Interscope album. I rather enjoyed them.  No doubt, the singles were used to help gain attention to the album because let's face it, any other songs from MDNA wouldn't have commercial appeal.  One could pretty much the say the same for Madame X album as well. To me, "Crave" was probably the only really commercial song that had a chance on that album.  And if she was a few years younger, I am sure "Crave" would have been a smash. Without those commercial/universal appealing songs, the albums would have definitely gotten no exposure at all.  Remember, artists are interested in appealing as many as possible, especially if they are looking to earn a chunk of change.  This is why you see so many doing so many side projects, selling products and doing a lot more product placement commercials. 

[Anapausis 5,914]

14 hours ago, James19709 said:

I've always thought TGS was so much better than BAT tbh

I have started looking Girlie to better eyes anyways

[James19709 351]

13 hours ago, McDonna said:

Unfortunately, her teaming up with Interscope didn't help her music catalog.  It doesn't help that she and her management was left to the promotion pretty much on their own.  MDNA had a good opportunity with the Superbowl, but then after that the singles just were pused aside and the focus was majorly on the tour.  I understand though because she was getting at the point the mainstream formats that used to play her music wasn't willing to play and promote her anymore. So now, she had to rely more on touring, which she had already been doing for several years now.  I personally have no issue with the Interscope album. I rather enjoyed them.  No doubt, the singles were used to help gain attention to the album because let's face it, any other songs from MDNA wouldn't have commercial appeal.  One could pretty much the say the same for Madame X album as well. To me, "Crave" was probably the only really commercial song that had a chance on that album.  And if she was a few years younger, I am sure "Crave" would have been a smash. Without those commercial/universal appealing songs, the albums would have definitely gotten no exposure at all.  Remember, artists are interested in appealing as many as possible, especially if they are looking to earn a chunk of change.  This is why you see so many doing so many side projects, selling products and doing a lot more product placement commercials. 

It's true that artists repeatedly "sell out" through their careers where they endorse products they don't care for but I think we're in an era where its transparent enough that most of us ignore all of that stuff. I had to unfollow Lady Gaga on social media because she was annoying me with her make up brand and a lot of fans feel the same way. The struggle between the artists and the labels of art vs. marketing and promotion is getting to a point the music industry is something to just ignore unless you wanna be irritated by stupid lyrics and false images of people

[Craigypants 15,291]

On 10/1/2023 at 1:45 AM, McDonna said:

There is no "possibly" to it.  Bad Girl was intended as the second single. Mark Romanek and Tim Burton were both approached to direct the Bad Girl video as well.  Madonnatribe also posted a leaked leaflet of the original Erotica track listing as well as explained how Bad Girl originally was going to be the second single:

http://www.madonnatribe.com/decade/2013/erotic-almost-2/

There was no damage control going on with the Erotica singles choices.

I remember more damage control for the sex book rather than the album. The album was huge in Australia, Numbered Editions, Gold Pressed, Re-Release Of Immaculate Collection Numbered and Gold. Plus Rain was on the radio every 3 dam songs when she touring that whole month down here.

They should have recorded the Melbourne shows. They were 80,000 people 3 nights and its huge at the MCG, Better atmosphere. Instead, they used Sydney Cricket Ground which did 4 nights at 50,000 people. I was lucky enough to attend the taped Sydney Release and the Melbourne Concerts. Thats when I had Zero Responsibility and lots of money. I still don't understand why she hasn't released Confessions in HD. It requires Zero work, was recorded In HD and can easily been thrown on a streaming service or for sale. Mariah and Kylie did this with their recent releases. Mariah has released live from Tokyo in HD to purchase and Kylie release a HD version of the Golden tour yet that was released only on DVD to Purchase But went HD for streaming. Just put it out.

[Donna 16,457]

6 hours ago, James19709 said:

It's true that artists repeatedly "sell out" through their careers where they endorse products they don't care for but I think we're in an era where its transparent enough that most of us ignore all of that stuff. I had to unfollow Lady Gaga on social media because she was annoying me with her make up brand and a lot of fans feel the same way. The struggle between the artists and the labels of art vs. marketing and promotion is getting to a point the music industry is something to just ignore unless you wanna be irritated by stupid lyrics and false images of people

Yeah, I'm about to unfollow Katy Perry because if I see one more show she tries to hawk... lol!  And I love her and her quirky self.  It's just annoying because sometimes these artists don't post so much regarding their career and then when they a product to sell, they are on socials 24/7 posting. At least when Madonna started the MDNA line she started a separate account to hawk those products.  Sometimes it would carry over to her own account, but at least she made these grand videos that made it more interesting.