Why did Madonna go with a Spanish theme for the Take a Bow video?

[kesiak 3,036]

6 hours ago, EgoRod said:

True but we also know she had few faux pas too. (Black Madonna anyone?) And Vogue will be always on the verge of controversy of how much she helped the Ballroom culture or how much she profited from it.

 

You can apply your logic regarding Batuka to Vogue - she used her platform to bring a culture of a group to a mainstream audience and featured them within her music as a sharing cultural event. 

[scamper 1,998]

Maybe I'm wrong but I've always heard that the inspiration for the video was the opera "Carmen" (by Georges Bizet). And that the bull-fighter story came from it. 

 

[EgoRod 5,448]

4 minutes ago, kesiak said:

You can apply your logic regarding Batuka to Vogue - she used her platform to bring a culture of a group to a mainstream audience and featured them within her music as a sharing cultural event. 

Yes. I met lots of the ballroom scene in NY, some that were in the scene since the 70s-80s and the opinion is really diverse. So many thought that when Vogue was becoming popular ( McLaren) she and Pettibone took advantage and blocked any success for anybody else but her. And she got the dancers put them on her show but never talked about the actual queer culture behind it. As you see in Paris is burning for example.

[Guest DeeperDeeper]

3 hours ago, EgoRod said:

Yes. I met lots of the ballroom scene in NY, some that were in the scene since the 70s-80s and the opinion is really diverse. So many thought that when Vogue was becoming popular ( McLaren) she and Pettibone took advantage and blocked any success for anybody else but her. And she got the dancers put them on her show but never talked about the actual queer culture behind it. As you see in Paris is burning for example.

Also remember when Vogue was released in 1990 it was at the height of the HIV/AIDS pandemic and M was already very supportive of AIDS Activism and gay men, which was a huge risk for that era. Vogue was liked by a real cross range of people and became an anthem for a lot of gay men of different backgrounds to use as defiance, self liberation and distraction from the oppression and hatred around them. 

If Madonna had explicitly talked about the cultural meaning behind Vogue with intersectional black/latin/queer roots when it was released, gay men and those interested in culture would have really appreciated it, yet homophobia in U.S. at that time would have led to a backlash over the song and the mainstream appeal would have waned. 

In a way she introduced queer culture to the masses by stealth. 

Edited August 16, 2020 by DeeperDeeper (see edit history)

[Roland Barthes 5,841]

It ALWAYS makes me laugh this cultural appropriation thing especially coming from americans, their culture is just a mismatch of cultures from other countries. But let's focus on Vogue. Voguing is cultural appropriation to start with. The name vogue comes from the magazine and the dance movements are recreation of the poses models did in the magazine. Because this is how culture works, everything and everyone stole & steals from everyone. Even tribes in Africa stole from other tribes they conquered. The whole story of the human race is about cultural appropriation. People whom come up with this shit should probably open a history or two and look into it for their own culture to see how much their heritage comes from diverse sources throughout the centuries. Even in Europe, our churches were inspired by constructions from the arab world and the arab world. When one sits on a stool does he or she think it's cultural appropriation from whoever came up with the idea of a toilet bowl ? And in repent chooses to squat on the floor ?

And Malcolm Mc Laren....the biggest fraud in pop music. He already stole everything from Richard Hell (you know, the guy in bed with Madonna at the begining of DSS) and created Sid Vicious by replicating Hell's look. He stole everything fromNew york's punk scene and brought it back to england to make money. The Sex Pistols is the biggest fraud ever, they were created like the Spice girls were, they couldn't play....it was all a big coup from McLaren to....sale clothes at the SEX store owned by Vivienne Westwood. It worked wonderfully so McLaren did it with hip hop after that. He went back to New York and made "Double dutch" and then he did Vogue....The guy kept stealing and stealing from New York scene without even giving back and he was a massive asshole who voted tory. He tried to cash on the new romantics scene in England but it did not work well, Bow Wow Wow wasn't the success he hoped for and he fired Boy George because he couldn't see his potential (and was a homophobe)...ask Boy George about McLaren.

And most people heard about Vogue because of Madonna not because of Mc Laren (it wasn't a huge worldwide hit like Vogue was) not because of Paris is Burning the movie was really hard to find until internet, it wasn't well distributed in cinemas and video stores. So the real visibility WORLDWIDE for voguing was Vogue & Truth or Dare. People can rewrite history as much as they want (especially those who were not even born yet or still swimming in their dad's sack) but back then visibility for gay culture was really small and whn the biggest popstar who had the constant attention of the whole world introduced it in her work it gave it a welcome boost. It's not Madonna's fault their favourite divas back then chose to ignore gay culture in their work and intriduced it when it was safe to. Listen to what Michael Jackson said to his rabbi on his tapes about Madonna wanting him to hang out with the house of Xtravaganza and the homophobic slurs he uses to describe them. Do you think grunge was a queer movement ? It was white hetero as fuck no matter what pro gay declaration Kurt Cobain made, the whole thing was a reaction against dance music of the early 90's considered gay music. So yes Madonna had to navigate in a very homophobic environement, silly when the three biggest ceo's of the biggest record companies were gays in the closet.

[Roland Barthes 5,841]

22 minutes ago, Roland Barthes said:

It ALWAYS makes me laugh this cultural appropriation thing especially coming from americans, their culture is just a mismatch of cultures from other countries. But let's focus on Vogue. Voguing is cultural appropriation to start with. The name vogue comes from the magazine and the dance movements are recreation of the poses models did in the magazine. Because this is how culture works, everything and everyone stole & steals from everyone. Even tribes in Africa stole from other tribes they conquered. The whole story of the human race is about cultural appropriation. People whom come up with this shit should probably open a history or two and look into it for their own culture to see how much their heritage comes from diverse sources throughout the centuries. Even in Europe, our churches were inspired by constructions from the arab world and the arab world. When one sits on a stool does he or she think it's cultural appropriation from whoever came up with the idea of a toilet bowl ? And in repent chooses to squat on the floor ?

And Malcolm Mc Laren....the biggest fraud in pop music. He already stole everything from Richard Hell (you know, the guy in bed with Madonna at the begining of DSS) and created Sid Vicious by replicating Hell's look. He stole everything fromNew york's punk scene and brought it back to england to make money. The Sex Pistols is the biggest fraud ever, they were created like the Spice girls were, they couldn't play....it was all a big coup from McLaren to....sale clothes at the SEX store owned by Vivienne Westwood. It worked wonderfully so McLaren did it with hip hop after that. He went back to New York and made "Double dutch" and then he did Vogue....The guy kept stealing and stealing from New York scene without even giving back and he was a massive asshole who voted tory. He tried to cash on the new romantics scene in England but it did not work well, Bow Wow Wow wasn't the success he hoped for and he fired Boy George because he couldn't see his potential (and was a homophobe)...ask Boy George about McLaren.

And most people heard about Vogue because of Madonna not because of Mc Laren (it wasn't a huge worldwide hit like Vogue was) not because of Paris is Burning the movie was really hard to find until internet, it wasn't well distributed in cinemas and video stores. So the real visibility WORLDWIDE for voguing was Vogue & Truth or Dare. People can rewrite history as much as they want (especially those who were not even born yet or still swimming in their dad's sack) but back then visibility for gay culture was really small and whn the biggest popstar who had the constant attention of the whole world introduced it in her work it gave it a welcome boost. It's not Madonna's fault their favourite divas back then chose to ignore gay culture in their work and intriduced it when it was safe to. Listen to what Michael Jackson said to his rabbi on his tapes about Madonna wanting him to hang out with the house of Xtravaganza and the homophobic slurs he uses to describe them. Do you think grunge was a queer movement ? It was white hetero as fuck no matter what pro gay declaration Kurt Cobain made, the whole thing was a reaction against dance music of the early 90's considered gay music. So yes Madonna had to navigate in a very homophobic environement, silly when the three biggest ceo's of the biggest record companies were gays in the closet.

She said it while promoting Truth or Dare,someone had to bring gay culture to the mainstreamto fight against the homophobia that the aids crisis installed in society. Any other popstar put her dancers upfront like she did ? They allwerefaceless and nameless until then and not many popstars still put their dancers upfront like she does. We know their names and stories. Even Niki and Donna. She shared the spotlight with them and put it on them. She had a realrelationship with Jose & Luis until drugs came into the picture in 93.

 

[Blue Jean 15,252]

18 hours ago, EgoRod said:

Cultural appropiation is when a dominant culture take advantage or elements of a culture that has been opressed and/or ridiculised by a dominant group, the dynamic of power is what makes a difference.

Cultural exchange on the other hand is when people or different groups share cultural elements, like the Fado you  mention.

Exactly. And Japanese, Chinese and Spanish are not oppressed by a dominant group in the same way as indigenous groups or African americans. So it’s not cultural appropriation. This is where the SJW’s get it wrong and try to attack absolutely everything for the sake of drama. I think paying homage to other cultures can be a lovely thing if done tastefully.

[Blue Jean 15,252]

As for the question I never thought about it. It’s an interesting point. She clearly just wanted to go with that theme regardless of the song style and the storyline fits in with the lyrics so it works. Plus half the video is just her rolling around in her underwear. Not sure how that aligns with her “audition” for Evita.

[Prayer 14,358]

I don't think she could get away today with "Take A Bow" or "Nothing Really Matters", really. The funny thing is those two videos were like auditions to her: "Take A Bow" for "Evita" and "Nothing Really Matters" for "Memoirs Of A Geisha". She really wanted that Hatsumomo role.

[cake 320]

from the 80's to the early 00's Madonna was praised being the postmodern pop star, ever-evolving, borrowing cultural elements into her art. Now that's called cultural appropriation.. oh well

[EgoRod 5,448]

20 minutes ago, Blue Jean said:

Exactly. And Japanese, Chinese and Spanish are not oppressed by a dominant group in the same way as indigenous groups or African americans. So it’s not cultural appropriation. This is where the SJW’s get it wrong and try to attack absolutely everything for the sake of drama. I think paying homage to other cultures can be a lovely thing if done tastefully.

Asian culture in history has been surrogated to the power of colonies and empires. Slanted eyes, mocking their english, big ears, buck tooth cartoons. True that they are on a different layer to African history. But Yellowface and misrepresentation of elements of a culture that has sacred, symbolic elements as a disguise, fashion or ethnical is still appropiation.

You can wear japanese clothing and pay hommage to japanese music, but dressing up as a geisha like a custome is appropiation.

[Ayham 5,483]

Interesting... 

 

[funkydita 218]

The reasons for using the matador trope are really straightforward, it immediately visually represents “the star” without resorting to the actor cliche and Michael Haussmann had recently worked on a project filming bullfights and that piqued her interest.

[EgoRod 5,448]

1 hour ago, Roland Barthes said:

It ALWAYS makes me laugh this cultural appropriation thing especially coming from americans, their culture is just a mismatch of cultures from other countries. But let's focus on Vogue. Voguing is cultural appropriation to start with. The name vogue comes from the magazine and the dance movements are recreation of the poses models did in the magazine. Because this is how culture works, everything and everyone stole & steals from everyone. Even tribes in Africa stole from other tribes they conquered. The whole story of the human race is about cultural appropriation. People whom come up with this shit should probably open a history or two and look into it for their own culture to see how much their heritage comes from diverse sources throughout the centuries. Even in Europe, our churches were inspired by constructions from the arab world and the arab world. When one sits on a stool does he or she think it's cultural appropriation from whoever came up with the idea of a toilet bowl ? And in repent chooses to squat on the floor ?

And Malcolm Mc Laren....the biggest fraud in pop music. He already stole everything from Richard Hell (you know, the guy in bed with Madonna at the begining of DSS) and created Sid Vicious by replicating Hell's look. He stole everything fromNew york's punk scene and brought it back to england to make money. The Sex Pistols is the biggest fraud ever, they were created like the Spice girls were, they couldn't play....it was all a big coup from McLaren to....sale clothes at the SEX store owned by Vivienne Westwood. It worked wonderfully so McLaren did it with hip hop after that. He went back to New York and made "Double dutch" and then he did Vogue....The guy kept stealing and stealing from New York scene without even giving back and he was a massive asshole who voted tory. He tried to cash on the new romantics scene in England but it did not work well, Bow Wow Wow wasn't the success he hoped for and he fired Boy George because he couldn't see his potential (and was a homophobe)...ask Boy George about McLaren.

And most people heard about Vogue because of Madonna not because of Mc Laren (it wasn't a huge worldwide hit like Vogue was) not because of Paris is Burning the movie was really hard to find until internet, it wasn't well distributed in cinemas and video stores. So the real visibility WORLDWIDE for voguing was Vogue & Truth or Dare. People can rewrite history as much as they want (especially those who were not even born yet or still swimming in their dad's sack) but back then visibility for gay culture was really small and whn the biggest popstar who had the constant attention of the whole world introduced it in her work it gave it a welcome boost. It's not Madonna's fault their favourite divas back then chose to ignore gay culture in their work and intriduced it when it was safe to. Listen to what Michael Jackson said to his rabbi on his tapes about Madonna wanting him to hang out with the house of Xtravaganza and the homophobic slurs he uses to describe them. Do you think grunge was a queer movement ? It was white hetero as fuck no matter what pro gay declaration Kurt Cobain made, the whole thing was a reaction against dance music of the early 90's considered gay music. So yes Madonna had to navigate in a very homophobic environement, silly when the three biggest ceo's of the biggest record companies were gays in the closet.

My comment about Vogue, was as I presented. Something shared with me in NY by people that lived, grew and belong to the Ballroom scene.

We are talking here of members of Xtravaganza, Ninja and alike. Is an an opinion I have to respect because I was a white spanish guy hanging around a party. A party with everyone who was someone in the NY scene was there.

Madonna discovered Vogue at the Love Ball, a charity raising money for AIDS . At the time they were artist like Ian Xtravanganza and Kevin Aviance representing Vogue to a bigger audience than ballroom. The sentiment was that Madonna , without being part of it. Took it, made it about white hollywood actors and cash it up.

I love Vogue, I love everything about it, video, song, concept and for me was an introduction to the scene. 

But that's my experience and that can't cancel how POC, Latinx in the scene feel'felt about it.

McLaren in fact is another borrower. But yet that wasn't the point.  Deep in Vogue didn't got much attention because Vogue step in within few weeks.

I couldn't care less of Malcolm tbh.

About cultural appropiation.

It's not the same than sharing a culture, or take inspiration or represent.

In fact some cultures borrow form each other and create wonderful things.

Cultural appropiation is a problem when a dominant culture takes from disadvantaged cultures. Or when this cultures are mocked, ridiculised, manipulated and abused based on some of their elements of their culture. For example, POC hair like afro, braids, being fetished, consider untidy or messy or even wild. But in fashion is use as a 'ethnical' cool feature. It's a way for a dominant culture to keep showcasing some type of power over those who think they are inferior.

When is consider that white is a default and a standard. And the rest are exotic and different. There's a problem. Because there's not mixed cultures but a dominant culture collecting from another.

Madonna like so many artist had been feeling inspired by elements of different cultures. That's normal. It does'nt means everything aged the same way and that some ideas from 10 years ago will be as welcoming today.

I think one of the difference to few years ago is social media and technology. Making it easy to bring attention and voice,  communities and cultures that before we couldn't learn from.

Instead of focusing of why we don't think there's a problem when I didn't see it before. That energy should go to listen to those that have been subdued to this treatment.To those that are not happy about how their culture is represented. Always check your privilege.

[EgoRod 5,448]

On a lighter note, at the same party I mentioned. I met this gentleman ( can't remember his name)

And he said Madonna slept at his sofa for few nights when she arrived there.

And he said she was feisty but really lovely person.

[Roland Barthes 5,841]

As a spanish person (i'm half portuguese, half spanish and 100% french) youmust know that rearding culture Spain & Portugal cultures mostly come from arab culture. Most cities, towns and regions with a name begining with AL comes from arab language : almeria, alentejo etc... Culture has always been about borrowing. As with these landmarks from western civilization used by the far right to show how western civilization is better than any other, they all come from arab inspiration https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2020/aug/13/looted-landmarks-notre-dame-big-ben-st-marks-east-stealing-from-the-saracens

And regarding ball culture, appropriation comes in all forms. Don't get me started on drag queens who ridicule women attributes and are transphobic yet they throw the appropriation card at everyone's faces. All my trans friends hate them. And seeing french voguers talking about appropriation regarding ballroom is laughable, i told one that id din't know he was from Harlem. And yes, the origine of Vogue was to replicate the poses of models and actors from the pages of Vogue magazine so by naming Hollywood actors Madonna just went back to its source.

Without appropriation there won't be culture. Some may see appropriation as a way to make money, it's also great propaganda. Without Hollywood, american culture would not have conquered the world, subtly made people learn english. By putting gay themes in her work that was everywhere, Madonna put some images in the mainstream so younger generations would get used to see men and women kissing. She wasn't the only one but it helped that the biggest star then used her plateform to show that there was nothing wrong with you being different and that you should celebrate it. She may have cashed on Vogue but she gave millions to Amfar and was vocal about homophobia and aids. Some did not bother. She may not have been part of the scene (anymore) but these people were fans. She put a foot in the door to let ideas get in the room. I'm pretty sure 90% of the people who know about voguing wouldn't without Vogue. Few years ago i was hired to make some correction in a book about voguing, the editor had no idea what it really was about (he was "cancelled" some years after for stealing articles from others to make books) and the guy who wrote it had even less ideas about the subject. It was terrible, i couldn't believe it. I made my corrections and kept my distance from them (they, on top of it were fucking toxic). So you havethis french book out there about voguing, almost the only of its kind in the world and the guy behind it are total frauds.

[EgoRod 5,448]

4 hours ago, Roland Barthes said:

As a spanish person (i'm half portuguese, half spanish and 100% french) youmust know that rearding culture Spain & Portugal cultures mostly come from arab culture. Most cities, towns and regions with a name begining with AL comes from arab language : almeria, alentejo etc... Culture has always been about borrowing. As with these landmarks from western civilization used by the far right to show how western civilization is better than any other, they all come from arab inspiration https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2020/aug/13/looted-landmarks-notre-dame-big-ben-st-marks-east-stealing-from-the-saracens

And regarding ball culture, appropriation comes in all forms. Don't get me started on drag queens who ridicule women attributes and are transphobic yet they throw the appropriation card at everyone's faces. All my trans friends hate them. And seeing french voguers talking about appropriation regarding ballroom is laughable, i told one that id din't know he was from Harlem. And yes, the origine of Vogue was to replicate the poses of models and actors from the pages of Vogue magazine so by naming Hollywood actors Madonna just went back to its source.

Without appropriation there won't be culture. Some may see appropriation as a way to make money, it's also great propaganda. Without Hollywood, american culture would not have conquered the world, subtly made people learn english. By putting gay themes in her work that was everywhere, Madonna put some images in the mainstream so younger generations would get used to see men and women kissing. She wasn't the only one but it helped that the biggest star then used her plateform to show that there was nothing wrong with you being different and that you should celebrate it. She may have cashed on Vogue but she gave millions to Amfar and was vocal about homophobia and aids. Some did not bother. She may not have been part of the scene (anymore) but these people were fans. She put a foot in the door to let ideas get in the room. I'm pretty sure 90% of the people who know about voguing wouldn't without Vogue. Few years ago i was hired to make some correction in a book about voguing, the editor had no idea what it really was about (he was "cancelled" some years after for stealing articles from others to make books) and the guy who wrote it had even less ideas about the subject. It was terrible, i couldn't believe it. I made my corrections and kept my distance from them (they, on top of it were fucking toxic). So you havethis french book out there about voguing, almost the only of its kind in the world and the guy behind it are total frauds.

I hear ya.

However this is exactly what I'm talking about difference between cultural appropriation and cultural exchange.

Everything you mention is history and cultural sharing. Arabic empire last for over 800 years in Spain and lived there along so many other cultures, religions.

That's different from appropriating from cultures as a dominant role.

Everything else you mention. I lost a bit of track. I think you are mixing s bit of the ideas, with prejudice, transphobia and other elements that should be look under a different lenses.

I know what you are coming from and I agree in the most part of what I understood. I just think it's a bit of too many elements from another discourse.

[nito84bcn 2,753]

20 hours ago, EgoRod said:

The construction of race on the current times has to do more with power than actual colour.

Thats' why countries like Spain that were colonisers are considered white but then hispanic and latin countries are not.

That's why a lot of people want the independence of Catalonia, but Spain doesn't allow even a referendum for that, so we are colonised too. We are quite different from central Spain (we don't like bullfights aswell). But that's another topic maybe, Madonna only spoke catalan once at her concert here lol, and she didn't show the Spanish flag during Holiday on Rebel Heart, (she choose Barça football club instead). The rest of the time, she's always saying things like 'andale, andale' when she comes here, and as you said... this is not Mexico. 

[EgoRod 5,448]

1 hour ago, nito84bcn said:

That's why a lot of people want the independence of Catalonia, but Spain doesn't allow even a referendum for that, so we are colonised too. We are quite different from central Spain (we don't like bullfights aswell). But that's another topic maybe, Madonna only spoke catalan once at her concert here lol, and she didn't show the Spanish flag during Holiday on Rebel Heart, (she choose Barça football club instead). The rest of the time, she's always saying things like 'andale, andale' when she comes here, and as you said... this is not Mexico. 

The political division of Spain is nothing to do with colonies.

Spain was unified by the Catholic Kingdom Isabela I and Ferdinand in 1469. That was a whole move to get power and be able to remove the Islamic and judaic presence from the peninsula.

From there evolves the invasion of Americas and lots of wars with everyone around that did'nt want to obey to an imposed Christian monarchy they never voted for.

They used the inquisition to cleanse and made a country under the Roman Catholic umbrella, supported all the time by the church in Italy.

At the time they created a union with the crown of Aragon and Castille that affected Catalonia as we know it. But that was respecting either political sides and laws as independent regions under the same country. But as soon as the take of the Americas happened that relationship broke apart. During 1640-50 there was a Catalan Republic.

And it never got much better like most part of regions in Spain, because they were forced to work under a common monarchy they never choose and they never wanted .

These are political discrepancies. And they have a reason to be. And the affairs of today affected from this origins still going for similar reasons.

Is not the same that live somewhere and have a bunch of foreigners coming over, saying they are trying to help you. Believe they are better than you, kill your family, rape your family, destroy your house, your community, spread disease, burn your culture, slave you, rob you and carry on with their life.

That's colonization.

 

[Guest DeeperDeeper]

43 minutes ago, nito84bcn said:

That's why a lot of people want the independence of Catalonia, but Spain doesn't allow even a referendum for that, so we are colonised too. We are quite different from central Spain (we don't like bullfights aswell). But that's another topic maybe, Madonna only spoke catalan once at her concert here lol, and she didn't show the Spanish flag during Holiday on Rebel Heart, (she choose Barça football club instead). The rest of the time, she's always saying things like 'andale, andale' when she comes here, and as you said... this is not Mexico. 

She said ¡Ándale, ándale! during the latin quarter section of Rebel Heart at all performances. It was part of the script. 

[EgoRod 5,448]

2 minutes ago, Ashley said:

She said ¡Ándale, ándale! during the latin quarter section of Rebel Heart at all performances. It was part of the script. 

Because that's someone you would say in Jalisco

[Guest DeeperDeeper]

On 8/16/2020 at 11:18 PM, EgoRod said:

The political division of Spain is nothing to do with colonies.

Spain was unified by the Catholic Kingdom Isabela I and Ferdinand in 1469. That was a whole move to get power and be able to remove the Islamic and judaic presence form the peninsula.

From there evolves the invasion of Americas and lots of wars with everyone around that did'nt want to obey to an imposed Christian monarchy they never voted for.

They used the inquisition to cleanse and made a country under the Roman Catholic umbrella, supported all the time by the church in Italy.

At the time they created a union with the crown of Aragon and Castille that affected Catalonia as we know it. But that was respecting either political sides and laws as independent regions under the same country. But as soon as the take of the Americas happened that relationship broke apart. During 1640-50 there was a Catalan Republic.

And it never got much better like most part of regions in Spain, because they were forced to work under a common monarchy they never choose and they never wanted .

These are political discrepancies. And they have a reason to be. And the affairs of today affected from this origins still going for similar reasons.

Is not the same that live somehwere and have a bunch of foreigners coming over, saying they are trying to help you. Believe they are better than you, kill your family, rape your family, destroy your house, your community, spread disease, burn your culture, slave you, rob you and carry on with their life.

That's colonization.

 

My personal opinion is that only Indigenous cultures on lands which have been stolen and colonised should be allowed to call things out for cultural appropriation. 

Other cultures are all products of acculturation, miscegenation and confluence and are constantly evolving and it's hypocrisy for them to cry cultural appropriation when their own cultures have done it themselves in one way or another. 

 

Edited August 20, 2020 by DeeperDeeper (see edit history)

[Guest DeeperDeeper]

4 minutes ago, EgoRod said:

Because that's someone you would say in Jalisco

Aah thank you for pointing that out. I always wondered where that term actually came from. 

[nito84bcn 2,753]

28 minutes ago, EgoRod said:

The political division of Spain is nothing to do with colonies.

Spain was unified by the Catholic Kingdom Isabela I and Ferdinand in 1469. That was a whole move to get power and be able to remove the Islamic and judaic presence form the peninsula.

From there evolves the invasion of Americas and lots of wars with everyone around that did'nt want to obey to an imposed Christian monarchy they never voted for.

They used the inquisition to cleanse and made a country under the Roman Catholic umbrella, supported all the time by the church in Italy.

At the time they created a union with the crown of Aragon and Castille that affected Catalonia as we know it. But that was respecting either political sides and laws as independent regions under the same country. But as soon as the take of the Americas happened that relationship broke apart. During 1640-50 there was a Catalan Republic.

And it never got much better like most part of regions in Spain, because they were forced to work under a common monarchy they never choose and they never wanted .

These are political discrepancies. And they have a reason to be. And the affairs of today affected from this origins still going for similar reasons.

Is not the same that live somewhere and have a bunch of foreigners coming over, saying they are trying to help you. Believe they are better than you, kill your family, rape your family, destroy your house, your community, spread disease, burn your culture, slave you, rob you and carry on with their life.

That's colonization.

 

Ok, I understand your point, but I’m from Catalonia and having Franco persecuting your grandparents and killing them because they had Catalan as a language, and a lot of people buried without identity next to our roads... for me it’s a real situation of colionalism. Also taking your money for a project and a monarchy that u didn’t choose, and returning a little part of it to have u always grabbed by your balls, the same thing. And if u complain u willl be acused of racist, and separatist. 

Beating all your poblation, neighbours, kids and grandmas because we wanted to vote on a referendum as a protest is another form of colonialism. Police touching the tits of girls, is a kind of rape too. A modern one, but colionalism after all. This is how a majority feels here tbh. 

[nito84bcn 2,753]

32 minutes ago, Ashley said:

She said ¡Ándale, ándale! during the latin quarter section of Rebel Heart at all performances. It was part of the script. 

Yes, after saying that ‘All the suits are custom made in Barcelona’ wich is Catalonia (Spain).