Madonna's 18 year long mea culpa for the SEX book

[mysweetaudrina 70]

12 minutes ago, Sultrysully said:

How sad to not be able to think outside of the box.  You are in the cage, not me.

I've thought outside of the box my entire life. Your mind is rotten by ideology.

[50ft Queenie 2,787]

34 minutes ago, Sultrysully said:

How sad to not be able to think outside of the box.  You are in the cage, not me.

 I suggest to ignore this troll, its comment history has proven it to be unworthy of our attention.

[mysweetaudrina 70]

4 minutes ago, Skyline Pigeon said:

 I suggest to ignore this troll, its comment history has proven it to be unworthy of our attention.

get over it sweetie.

[me1981 1,358]

For me the point was always that she was sick of seeing a man's view of a woman's sexuality. Look at Playboy, Penthouse and Hustler. These were all acceptable by 1992 and celebs were even starting to pose for them and had always done interviews with those magazines. These were all created and generally run by men.

She was saying that men had dominated a woman's image and sexuality and she was taking it back. The issue is that that seems to be as far as she got in the thought process for the project, and I don't think Meisel or anyone working on the book had the creative understanding to take the project where it needed to go.

Was it half baked? - Maybe. I don't think SEX was ever that amazing. The writing was not up to par for her and the photos were fairly bland. Though some are still iconic. The statement she made was far greater than the project itself.

The bigger issue was that it was hyped to the heavens. Every tv show and newspaper and magazine announced SEX COMING SOON and also Madonna has an album out the same day apparently. I don't think anything was ever going to live up to the hype that came before it. 

For me 1992 was the last year of the 80's for M. It was the hype and scandal and pop culture impact and the mega fame. When we hit 1993 and once it was clear Erotica had flopped, Body of Evidence had flopped and everything she touched was failing, we hit the 90's. 

I agree she was sombre and angry and depressed 93 - 95. I don't think it was just her career. I could write a whole thesis on this period or do a multi part video series on it. It can't be easy to hit heights like she did, and then fall from that and crash hard and have everyone spit on you and kick you and love the fact that you have failed. Mariah, Whitney and Janet were the 'good' girls playing by the rules (though it seems they were all being controlled behind the scenes) and they were getting all the praise. M was being treated like the naughty girl who had to be punished and put in her place. I understand her anger.

As for the Girlie Show. I felt it was brilliant. All of it. 

 

[mysweetaudrina 70]

14 minutes ago, me1981 said:

For me the point was always that she was sick of seeing a man's view of a woman's sexuality. Look at Playboy, Penthouse and Hustler. These were all acceptable by 1992 and celebs were even starting to pose for them and had always done interviews with those magazines. These were all created and generally run by men.

She was saying that men had dominated a woman's image and sexuality and she was taking it back. The issue is that that seems to be as far as she got in the thought process for the project, and I don't think Meisel or anyone working on the book had the creative understanding to take the project where it needed to go.

Was it half baked? - Maybe. I don't think SEX was ever that amazing. The writing was not up to par for her and the photos were fairly bland. Though some are still iconic. The statement she made was far greater than the project itself.

The bigger issue was that it was hyped to the heavens. Every tv show and newspaper and magazine announced SEX COMING SOON and also Madonna has an album out the same day apparently. I don't think anything was ever going to live up to the hype that came before it. 

For me 1992 was the last year of the 80's for M. It was the hype and scandal and pop culture impact and the mega fame. When we hit 1993 and once it was clear Erotica had flopped, Body of Evidence had flopped and everything she touched was failing, we hit the 90's. 

I agree she was sombre and angry and depressed 93 - 95. I don't think it was just her career. I could write a whole thesis on this period or do a multi part video series on it. It can't be easy to hit heights like she did, and then fall from that and crash hard and have everyone spit on you and kick you and love the fact that you have failed. Mariah, Whitney and Janet were the 'good' girls playing by the rules (though it seems they were all being controlled behind the scenes) and they were getting all the praise. M was being treated like the naughty girl who had to be punished and put in her place. I understand her anger.

As for the Girlie Show. I felt it was brilliant. All of it. 

 

She wrote in the SEX book that porn magazines were not misogynistic and that no one was putting a gun to the women's head. All the arguments in this thread to defend her are deflated by what Madonna herself once said.

I also wish that people would stop it with the revisionism and stop watching her work through a woke ideology lens, using words as "narrative" and "claiming it back". That's not what she did or even attempted to do. 

My point is that all her anger was stupid and shows her as not an artist and exactly what everyone accused her of, being manipulative and concerned with success and just being famous, which was never completely what she was, but her sorrness at criticism and walking back prove she was like that to a great extent.

[Drownedboy 1,676]

I love her but I agree she is not like Jesuschrist fighting for world´s freedom. I mean, she´s not Joan Baez, and her goal was always to be the number 1 above it all. And till Rebel Heart, I think, more or less, she achieved it. Lately she can´t as she does not want to be seen as a legate artist but at the same time she is not able to connect with younger generation anymore, that´s why she is a bit lost in my opinion.

[me1981 1,358]

2 hours ago, mysweetaudrina said:

She wrote in the SEX book that porn magazines were not misogynistic and that no one was putting a gun to the women's head. All the arguments in this thread to defend her are deflated by what Madonna herself once said.

I also wish that people would stop it with the revisionism and stop watching her work through a woke ideology lens, using words as "narrative" and "claiming it back". That's not what she did or even attempted to do. 

My point is that all her anger was stupid and shows her as not an artist and exactly what everyone accused her of, being manipulative and concerned with success and just being famous, which was never completely what she was, but her sorrness at criticism and walking back prove she was like that to a great extent.

First - I never said she said they were misogynist. I said through history men have always controlled the way women have been seen. We had mostly seen a man's view of a woman and a woman's sexuality, she wanted to express her view of a woman's sexuality as a woman. She said this at the time. Pretty simple and straight forward.

Second - She was playing a character in the SEX book. So take what Dita says with a grain of salt. That's like saying "Madonna said in Body of Evidence.....Madonna said in Shanghai Surprise........." Madonna said nothing in the SEX book, her character said plenty and was a fantasy character. 

 

Last - She complained because she was treated like a bad girl who did bad things and was punished for doing what she did. Calling people out for treating a woman like Madonna like a tramp and a slut for being who she is isn't revisionist wokism. It happened and it wasn't okay then and it isn't okay now

[mysweetaudrina 70]

9 minutes ago, me1981 said:

First - I never said she said they were misogynist. I said through history men have always controlled the way women have been seen. We had mostly seen a man's view of a woman and a woman's sexuality, she wanted to express her view of a woman's sexuality as a woman. She said this at the time. Pretty simple and straight forward.

Second - She was playing a character in the SEX book. So take what Dita says with a grain of salt. That's like saying "Madonna said in Body of Evidence.....Madonna said in Shanghai Surprise........." Madonna said nothing in the SEX book, her character said plenty and was a fantasy character. 

 

Last - She complained because she was treated like a bad girl who did bad things and was punished for doing what she did. Calling people out for treating a woman like Madonna like a tramp and a slut for being who she is isn't revisionist wokism. It happened and it wasn't okay then and it isn't okay now

People have a right to not want to see bondage, s&m, homosexuality and sexuality in the media and the mainstream, all the criticism she got she deserved, it was not misogynistic. 

You criticized men's magazines and sexuality from a man's point of view but that's not what she says in the sex book or even during the period. That's what she said when she was whining like a nelly after 1993 after probably her yes men like Ingrid told her it was all misogynistic and you are repeating the revisionism. It wasn't.

[me1981 1,358]

10 minutes ago, mysweetaudrina said:

People have a right to not want to see bondage, s&m, homosexuality and sexuality in the media and the mainstream, all the criticism she got she deserved, it was not misogynistic. 

You criticized men's magazines and sexuality from a man's point of view but that's not what she says in the sex book or even during the period. That's what she said when she was whining like a nelly after 1993 after probably her yes men like Ingrid told her it was all misogynistic and you are repeating the revisionism. It wasn't.

I didn't criticise men's magazines at all. I pointed out a fact. Men have controlled women's sexuality in media. That is a fact. It is not a criticism. Madonna did say at the time she wanted to show a woman's point of view. This was pre 1993. 

Why do you keep saying "that's not what she says in the sex book" You do know that book is fiction. It is disingenous to quote anything from that book and attribute it to Madonna. If you don't realise it is fiction than maybe Madonna is right "You don't get it"

Also she has barely whinged about the Erotica/Sex book era. She has barely talked about it. I think it has been brought up a handful of times in 30 years. 

[mysweetaudrina 70]

17 minutes ago, me1981 said:

I didn't criticise men's magazines at all. I pointed out a fact. Men have controlled women's sexuality in media. That is a fact. It is not a criticism. Madonna did say at the time she wanted to show a woman's point of view. This was pre 1993. 

Why do you keep saying "that's not what she says in the sex book" You do know that book is fiction. It is disingenous to quote anything from that book and attribute it to Madonna. If you don't realise it is fiction than maybe Madonna is right "You don't get it"

Also she has barely whinged about the Erotica/Sex book era. She has barely talked about it. I think it has been brought up a handful of times in 30 years. 

It is not disinginous, I have referred to both the contents of the Sex book and her statements in interviews, I've seen them a million times and you are wrong. The "I was a woman and making money off the book" thing came in 1994, Bedtime Stories EPK interview to be exact. 

There have been many women working in media too all throughout the 20th century so that "men have controlled everything" is innacurate. 

[PlayPause 2,684]

On 3/24/2022 at 11:31 PM, mysweetaudrina said:

I also wonder, as much as I love Erotica/SEX/Girlie Show, why do they feel "off"?? half baked.

The whole era was partly influenced by the NY underground scene, hence the demo sound of the album, especially the vocals, and the gritty direction of the book. Half baking is part of the artistic gesture, even though it's only a perception : Erotica and SEX are highly produced works.

I don't get what you call a mea culpa here.

[me1981 1,358]

5 hours ago, mysweetaudrina said:

It is not disinginous, I have referred to both the contents of the Sex book and her statements in interviews, I've seen them a million times and you are wrong. The "I was a woman and making money off the book" thing came in 1994, Bedtime Stories EPK interview to be exact. 

There have been many women working in media too all throughout the 20th century so that "men have controlled everything" is innacurate. 

I never said men control everything

[mysweetaudrina 70]

4 hours ago, PlayPause said:

The whole era was partly influenced by the NY underground scene, hence the demo sound of the album, especially the vocals, and the gritty direction of the book. Half baking is part of the artistic gesture, even though it's only a perception : Erotica and SEX are highly produced works.

I don't get what you call a mea culpa here.

I love the grittiness of both but all the non single tracks on Erotica had to be scrapped. I mean Where Life Begins included over something like Goodbye To Innocence?? what was she thinking. Erotica is the album of her career zenith, it's the "Vogue" record, it needed to be flawless and she blew it badly. 

I also think the SEX book should have had way more pictures.

[mysweetaudrina 70]

4 hours ago, me1981 said:

I never said men control everything

yes you did, that's the whole patriarchy bullshit modern ideology that crumbles at the least but of scrutiny.

[MDRA 4,223]

Just now, mysweetaudrina said:

yes you did, that's the whole patriarchy bullshit modern ideology that crumbles at the least but of scrutiny.

Ouch, show us on the doll where the bad woman touched you...

[mysweetaudrina 70]

55 minutes ago, slutpride said:

Ouch, show us on the doll where the bad woman touched you...

I am a platinum gay, I've never smelled pussy.

[mikenmark 422]

55 minutes ago, mysweetaudrina said:

yes you did, that's the whole patriarchy bullshit modern ideology that crumbles at the least but of scrutiny.

If you don't believe that men control everything, then you aren't looking high enough up the chain, take a peek above the glass ceiling that women face in every aspect of their lives. As a man, it's really not your lived experience  so you shouldn't really be deciding when or if women have been subjected to sexism, obstruction, misogyny.

 

[mikenmark 422]

4 minutes ago, mysweetaudrina said:

I am a platinum gay, I've never smelled pussy.

I think your mother would disagree

[mikenmark 422]

1 hour ago, mysweetaudrina said:

 

I also think the SEX book should have had way more pictures.

When you sell a book that breaks records/boundaries and you've given a lecture at Harvard business school because your debut book did so well, your opinion will be valued, but until then...

[mysweetaudrina 70]

34 minutes ago, mikenmark said:

If you don't believe that men control everything, then you aren't looking high enough up the chain, take a peek above the glass ceiling that women face in every aspect of their lives. As a man, it's really not your lived experience  so you shouldn't really be deciding when or if women have been subjected to sexism, obstruction, misogyny.

 

rid your brain from ideology please, go read camille paglia and set yourself free.

[mysweetaudrina 70]

29 minutes ago, mikenmark said:

When you sell a book that breaks records/boundaries and you've given a lecture at Harvard business school because your debut book did so well, your opinion will be valued, but until then...

it's very ignorant to devalue an opinion only because it doesn't come from someone from Harvard. That's why your brain is rotten by ideology, you take any garbage idea seriously as long as it comes from the right place. Sad.

[mysweetaudrina 70]

34 minutes ago, mikenmark said:

I think your mother would disagree

I was born through caesarian.

[mikenmark 422]

7 minutes ago, mysweetaudrina said:

rid your brain from ideology please, go read camille paglia and set yourself free.

Look further and realise that men really do rule the world

[mikenmark 422]

4 minutes ago, mysweetaudrina said:

I was born through caesarian.

You said smell, my comment stands 

[mikenmark 422]

6 minutes ago, mysweetaudrina said:

it's very ignorant to devalue an opinion only because it doesn't come from someone from Harvard. That's why your brain is rotten by ideology, you take any garbage idea seriously as long as it comes from the right place. Sad.

No, you misunderstand, I'm not saying that only Harvard opinion matters, I'm saying that yours doesn't