Madonna Is Billboard's 2016 Woman of the Year

[Fighter 28,798]

Do you really think what you're saying is in any way in good taste? Let alone true. Some people.

[Fighter 28,798]

@@Independent Thinker but why do we need to pick on that one comment? What she said might have been somewhat hyperbole but it's what's been her experience and she gave examples. Ageism isnt just for women, but coupled with sexism it's a much bigger issue. And unfortunately the ageism she experiences is very much about sexism.

 

I think the Sharon Stone example is not really the same. She did a "classy" nude shoot, she wasn't really pushing buttons like Madonna does, and Sharon Stone is someone who is considered to have fallen off for a while, people are willing to be more forgiving. Madonna is still "too" successful and what people consider to be "aggressive", so they will pick at anything. To me that's sexism wether it is overt or covert.

[Independent Thinker 160]

Ageism isnt just for women, but coupled with sexism it's a much bigger issue. And unfortunately the ageism she experiences is very much about sexism.

That doesn't make any sense.

 

 

but why do we need to pick on that one comment? 

 

Because she said men don't experience it at all and it's not true. I have every right to correct her. I shouldn't have to bite my tongue. There's nothing wrong with what I'm saying.

 

I think the Sharon Stone example is not really the same. She did a "classy" nude shoot, she wasn't really pushing buttons like Madonna does, and Sharon Stone is someone who is considered to have fallen off for a while, people are willing to be more forgiving. Madonna is still "too" successful and what people consider to be "aggressive", so they will pick at anything. To me that's sexism wether it is overt or covert.

Well, when what you're doing is pushing buttons, people are naturally going to react. People have a problem with sex and sexual expression PERIOD. The gender of the person expressing themselves doesn't matter. Remember when Adam Lambert performed at the AMAs in 2009 and people came after him? GMA cancelled his live concert the next morning. Remember the shit Robin Thicke got for his song and video Blurred Lines? They said it was misogynistic and promoted rape. This isn't about sexism. This is about people being prudes.

[Fighter 28,798]

Giving a gay man as an example that men can get shit too for showing sexuality is ridiculous.

 

"Blurred Lines" got criticism for being rapey yet it was a MASSIVE hit. Like the thousands of videos and songs of men objectifying girls. 

 

If you don't perceive the difference in response to passive vs "aggressive" females by societal attitudes, well that's.. just what it is.

 

She's very much aware that she's going to get shit for pushing buttons, but the truth is she shouldn't.

[devilpray 2,387]

I honestly can't believe we're discussing this, especially the way her body looks. She's almost 60 years old, she looks amazing, not only for her age but in general. I'm happy that she's not such a robot and control/gym freak nowadays, she seems happier idk. It's ha life let ha liiiive

[Independent Thinker 160]

Giving a gay man as an example that men can get shit too for showing sexuality is ridiculous.

But he is a man who got shit for showing sexuality.

 

And Robin Thicke is a straight man who got shit for showing sexuality.

 

 

"Blurred Lines" got criticism for being rapey yet it was a MASSIVE hit. Like the thousands of videos and songs of men objectifying girls. 

 

If you don't perceive the difference in response to passive vs "aggressive" females by societal attitudes, well that's.. just what it is.

 

She's very much aware that she's going to get shit for pushing buttons, but the truth is she shouldn't.

 

I fail to see how Blurred Lines was "rapey." Jessie J had the song Bang Bang w/the same lyrics ("I know you want it") and nobody called it "rapey." Madonna's most controversial works have also been MASSIVE hits. Plus, women objectify men all the time (M's Girl Gone Wild video, Magic Mike, Ellen's talk show) and people don't call it sexist. I agree that she shouldn't get shit for what she does, but pushing buttons will... well... push buttons.

 

I don't think her gender is the issue here. If it was, ALL women would get shit for it, not just the "aggressive" ones.

 

"Aggressive" men get shit for it too, as evident by the examples I've given.

[Fighter 28,798]

But he is a man who is getting shit for showing sexuality.

 

But you're disregarding the issue of homophobia. I mean... It's just not a good example.

 

 

 

Madonna's most controversial works have also been MASSIVE hits.

 

Her Erotica project, was seen as a huge "flop" of her career and people proclaimed she was most definitely over, even though the music itself was well received critically. And as she said, males (and females) who were being sexy at the time didn't get the amount of shit she got. Reminds me of when Janet Jackson said "my work has class to it" [compared to Madonna's] in 1993.

 

I fail to see how Blurred Lines was "rapey." Jessie J had the song Bang Bang w/the same lyrics ("I know you want it") and nobody called it "rapey."

 

Plus, women objectify men all the time (M's Girl Gone Wild video, Magic Mike, Ellen's talk show) and people don't call it sexist. I agree that she shouldn't get shit for what she does, but pushing buttons will... well... push buttons.

 

I don't think her gender is the issue here. If it was, ALL women would get shit for it, not just the "aggressive" ones.

 

"Aggressive" men get shit for it too, as evident by the examples I've given.

 

I don't like that Ellen segment to be fair, but that doesn't mean men get as much shit as females. On Girl Gone Wild Madonna objectifies herself as well while subverting female objectification by males.

 

I think most of the sexism is covert sexism in the sense that people don't realise what they do is sexist, and that's because our society has been male-centric for a very very long time and we all internalise and pass down a lot of this ideology without realising, it's what's accepted. This is the reason why a lot of women grow up sexist towards other women. The amount of times women call her a whore is insane.

 

If you're young and can be seen as sexy, you can get a pass with a lot of people, but once you cross a line of age, or a line of being too much of an aggressive "feminist", that's no longer the case.

 

Honestly this applies to a lot of different types of bigotry. When a gay man is passable as straight and comes across asexual he will get much more acceptance, and even within the gay community there's bigotry towards fem males.

 

So no, not all women will get the same, not everything is equal.

[Independent Thinker 160]

But you're disregarding the issue of homophobia. I mean... It's just not a good example.

*sigh*

 

But... he IS a MAN who GOT SHIT for SHOWING SEXUALITY. 

 

I also gave you an example of a straight man who did as well, however justified you think that shit was.

 

 

Her Erotica project, was seen as a huge "flop" of her career and people proclaimed she was most definitely over, even though the music itself was well received critically. 

Fuck what critics/public say. Look at the charts. Look at the sales. That album was a huge hit. Those singles (Erotica, Deeper and Deeper, Rain) were massive. The Sex book flew out of stores. The first day of its release wasn't even over yet and stores were already having to order more books. A ton of people even called early to reserve copies. The hypocrisy was insane. Like she said, people were so vocal about hating it, yet everyone bought it.

 

 

I don't like that Ellen segment to be fair, but that doesn't mean men get as much shit as females. 

Saying something like this is minimizing the experiences men have with ageism and objectification. If it occurs, that is enough. It doesn't matter how often one gets it over another, as far as I'm concerned. 

 

 

I think most of the sexism is covert sexism in the sense that people don't realise what they do is sexist, and that's because our society has been male-centric for a very very long time and we all internalise and pass down a lot of this ideology without realising, it's what's accepted. This is the reason why a lot of women grow up sexist towards other women. The amount of times women call her a whore is insane.

 

If you're young and can be seen as sexy, you can get a pass with a lot of people, but once you cross a line of age, or a line of being too much of an aggressive "feminist", that's no longer the case.

 

Honestly this applies to a lot of different types of bigotry. When a gay man is passable as straight and comes across asexual he will get much more acceptance, and even within the gay community there's bigotry towards fem males.

 

So no, not all women will get the same, not everything is equal.

 

I don't think "sexism" is the right word to describe the issues you're presenting here. These are certainly significant self-esteem issues when it comes to particular groups. However, I think to label it as "internalized misogyny" or "internalized homophobia" is too lazy of a way to describe it. It's too dismissive of the deeper issue that's causing those judgments.  

 

Or maybe, just maybe, they have a valid reason to feel the way they do that has nothing to do with the person's gender or sexual orientation.

[Fighter 28,798]

*sigh*

 

But... he IS a MAN who GOT SHIT for SHOWING SEXUALITY. 

 

I also gave you an example of a straight man who did as well, however justified you think that shit was.

 

 

In Adam Lambert's case, there's no way to quantify how much it was homophobia, so it really is not a good example.

 

I'm not sure wether the Blurred Lines backlash was justified or not. People pointed out it was problematic but it certainly wasn't because they were prudes, they thought it was sexist. Wether that's more of that "everything is problematic" culture we have these days is another matter.

 

Fuck what critics/public say. Look at the charts. Look at the sales. That album was a huge hit. Those singles (Erotica, Deeper and Deeper, Rain) were massive. The Sex book flew out of stores. The first day of its release wasn't even over yet and stores were already having to order more books. A ton of people even called early to reserve copies. The hypocrisy was insane. Like she said, people were so vocal about hating it, yet everyone bought it.

 

Fact is her sales severely declined in this period. That's in the numbers. The book was hugely successful, for a book.

 

Saying something like this is minimizing the experiences men have with ageism and objectification. If it occurs, that is enough. It doesn't matter how often one gets it over another, as far as I'm concerned. 

 

Inequality is called inequality for a reason. What's important is the degree to which something happens. Sexism is a huge issue for females, and ageism TOWARDS FEMALES, has a lot to do with sexism. Ageism towards males is just ageism. Of course it is also not acceptable, but it's different. Males don't suffer institutionalised sexism. 

 

I don't think "sexism" is the right word to describe the issues you're presenting here. As I said before, if it were sexism, ALL women would experience it. These are certainly significant self-esteem issues when it comes to particular groups. However, I think to label it as "internalized misogyny" or "internalized homophobia" is too lazy of a way to describe it. It's too dismissive of the deeper issue that's causing those judgments.  

 

Internalised /misogyny, homophobia, racism/ have to do in part with self esteem and peer pressure because of what society dictates through traditions and institutions as what's acceptable and what the norm is. I don't think it's dismissive. It's a good consideration to make, we're all a little bigoted.

 

All women can experience extreme sexism once they cross the "unacceptable" threshold. Some won't cross it, some will try to align themselves with the male-centric view of what femininity (and aging) should be, some will naturally be what's "acceptable" and I'm fine with that, and others like Madonna will try to break barriers. Is she perfect? no, but what she says is important, if we listen to the whole rather than pick on one sentence.

[rebelheart29 329]

I honestly can't believe we're discussing this, especially the way her body looks. She's almost 60 years old, she looks amazing, not only for her age but in general. I'm happy that she's not such a robot and control/gym freak nowadays, she seems happier idk. It's ha life let ha liiiive

I know I was thinking lately she looks good with some more weight on. Before we saw her obsessively work out a lot go to the gym etc. 

[rmccarthy_1 39]

I don't think that her sudden gained weight comes from medication.

I think that it's from that brat son's trouble. And it became to "stress eating."

 

I think that she still handle very well all the critics because she is Queen of media and Pro.

but her own son's problem is very different thing to compare to work.

So that's the reason she get stressed and do stress eating.

 

I don't get that fans which keep saying "oh she's more beautiful now! her billboard woman of the year awards looks just perfect!"

 

Really?

I mean that suites looks hideous and that ugly suites even can't hide her weird body Proportions.

her belly looks like Four month pregnant woman!

 

I don't care what she had done her face because you have to something done in your face (especially if you are in the entertainment industry) because you can't beat the time!

But Body is different thing! that is one thing we can handle and control it!

 

And my Madonna is the Icon of the strong healthy woman which very well known as 100% handle her body perfectly!

So watching Madonna lost control of her body is really scared me.

 

Don't bring her 58 year old age as excuse. Jane Fonda is born 1937 and she still own and control her body perfectly.

So I really hope that our The One and only Queen of Pop would control her body 100% again very soon.

 

if you guys read my whole posts you guys probably know that I always have been pro Madonna.

My posts are always positive about What Madonna doing and always be at the Madonna side.

Like a one of crazy hard core fan. This is from that positive hardcore fan, so this is really serious situation.

 

As I said before I don't want to her to be "thin".

I don't even want to her body to be like Confession tour leotard body or MDNA tour body.

I just want her body look like a beginning of Rebel heart tour healthy boty. That's all.

I'm sorry but your attitude is absolutely appalling and disgusting. I can't believe a Madonna fan is body shaming her.

[Madame Madonna 4,107]

Of course She looks really good "in general."

But problem is we are NOT talking about "a general person." 

Not even average pop star.

We are talking about The one and only Queen of pop which set the high standard by herself.

 

 

So this kind of belly doesn't get along with Queen of Pop Madonna in my opinion.

But as I said before I understand that this is some kind "off" season (vacation season) to her, So I also happy to see that she is enjoying great foods.

But I really hope that these belly gonna go away before next new album era beginning.

 

And I think that people which keep bring her age as excuses, something like this "Oh give me a break! she is almost 60 year old!" are the real ageist which Madonna really hate about.

 

She is almost 60 year old? So what? So she has to getting fat like a general old nobody grandma?

As I said before We are talking about Madonna, A living Legend, Not a general person. or even not a average pop star.

 

 

 

P.S

well this topic is not about her belly so I will not post about it again in this topic.

People has different opinion. so do not acting like a brat just move on.

I don't get that kind of brat which insulting the other people just because they have different opinion. 

We should talking about how amazing and perfect her speech was and how hideous that suit was.

[Frank 42,521]

GETTING BACK TO FUCKING TOPIC NOW, PLEASE?????!!!!!!

 

Is anyone recording the show, full speech, etc etc today??? ;-)

[Independent Thinker 160]

In Adam Lambert's case, there's no way to quantify how much it was homophobia, so it really is not a good example.

It WAS a good example, because he is a MAN who GOT SHIT for SHOWING SEXUALITY. 

 

 

I'm not sure wether the Blurred Lines backlash was justified or not. People pointed out it was problematic but it certainly wasn't because they were prudes, they thought it was sexist. Wether that's more of that "everything is problematic" culture we have these days is another matter.

Another good example, because this is a straight man who got shit for showing his sexuality.

 

 

Inequality is called inequality for a reason. What's important is the degree to which something happens. Sexism is a huge issue for females, and ageism TOWARDS FEMALES, has a lot to do with sexism. Ageism towards males is just ageism. Of course it is also not acceptable, but it's different. Males don't suffer institutionalised sexism. 

 

It's not inequality if men experience the exact same thing. Regardless of the degree to which one group experiences it over another. To dismiss people's experiences, just because they seem to experience it at a lesser amount than another, is pretty hypocritical when advocating for equality. If there are men who also get judged like this, it clearly has nothing to do with the person's gender. The fact of the matter is, not a lot of male artists are provocative in their fashion choices or their live shows. So that might have something to do with why men don't appear to experience it as much. And when men do experience it, it's either ignored (RHCP example) or seen as justified (Robin Thicke example).

 

 

 

Internalised /misogyny, homophobia, racism/ have to do in part with self esteem and peer pressure because of what society dictates through traditions and institutions as what's acceptable and what the norm is. I don't think it's dismissive. It's a good consideration to make, we're all a little bigoted.

No, we're not all a little bigoted. We are taught the harsh realities of the world growing up. This contributes to a loss of innocence we feel as we get older. We suddenly are aware of the differences in people. But this doesn't make us bigoted. It doesn't mean we hold any judgments towards that person because of their race or gender. Bigoted is the wrong word to use.

 

 

All women can experience extreme sexism once they cross the "unacceptable" threshold. Some won't cross it, some will try to align themselves with the male-centric view of what femininity (and aging) should be, some will naturally be what's "acceptable" and I'm fine with that, and others like Madonna will try to break barriers. Is she perfect? no, but what she says is important, if we listen to the whole rather than pick on one sentence.

There are men who cross that "unacceptable" threshold too. It doesn't exist solely for women. And I wasn't "picking on" one sentence. I simply pointed it out and said why it's wrong. Other people made a big deal about what I said, which speaks volumes as far as I'm concerned. 

[DaddyZ 1,566]

Oh Christ. Some of you really have too much time on their hands and some are just plain ...... ummm...... nevermind,- nothing nice to say.

[poserdemadonna 1,630]

Ok, so after r̶e̶a̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ skimming through this thread real question is: when will the award ceremony be airing?

[Frank 42,521]

Ok, so after r̶e̶a̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ skimming through this thread real question is: when will the award ceremony be airing?

 

Tonight!.

[devilpray 2,387]

Idk I love me some curvy M 

[Fighter 28,798]

It WAS a good example, because he is a MAN who GOT SHIT for SHOWING SEXUALITY. 

 

 

Another good example, because this is a straight man who got shit for showing his sexuality.

 

 

It's not inequality if men experience the exact same thing. Regardless of the degree to which one group experiences it over another. To dismiss people's experiences, just because they seem to experience it at a lesser amount than another, is pretty hypocritical when advocating for equality. If there are men who also get judged like this, it clearly has nothing to do with the person's gender. The fact of the matter is, not a lot of male artists are provocative in their fashion choices or their live shows. So that might have something to do with why men don't appear to experience it as much. And when men do experience it, it's either ignored (RHCP example) or seen as justified (Robin Thicke example).

 

 

There's no way to advocate for equality without pointing out inequalities. That's not hypocritical whatsoever. Sexism towards females is endemic. Men don't experience constant gender-based over and covert aggressions throughout their life fuelled by societal views that stem from history and traditions. Madonna already gave examples of men who were provocative at the same time as her and didn't get the same amount of vilification. If your examples are valid then why aren't hers?

 

 

 

No, we're not all a little bigoted. We are taught the harsh realities of the world growing up. This contributes to a loss of innocence we feel as we get older. We suddenly are aware of the differences in people. But this doesn't make us bigoted. It doesn't mean we hold any judgments towards that person because of their race or gender. Bigoted is the wrong word to use.

 

 

There are men who cross that "unacceptable" threshold too. It doesn't exist solely for women. And I wasn't "picking on" one sentence. I simply pointed it out and said why it's wrong. Other people made a big deal about what I said, which speaks volumes as far as I'm concerned. 

 

We aren't all taught harsh realities growing up. We are conditioned to what's "normal" and what isn't. That's only beginning to change now in any meaningful way. I think most people hold judgements towards others based on superficial traits wether we realise it or not, in big or small ways. Culture is rampant with stereotypes and exclusive norms, it's only natural that some of that seeps into our consciousness.

 

 

There are men who cross that "unacceptable" threshold too. It doesn't exist solely for women.

 

And what is that unacceptable threshold for men? straight males who act sexual don't get shamed by society at large. It's largely seen as normal, even by people who don't find it acceptable, there's the sense that "it's just how men are". Females are expected to be ladylike and "respect themselves". 

[mrsciccone 2,147]

so proud of her speech, loved it

[Independent Thinker 160]

There's no way to advocate for equality without pointing out inequalities. That's not hypocritical whatsoever. Sexism towards females is endemic. Men don't experience constant gender-based over and covert aggressions throughout their life fuelled by societal views that stem from history and traditions. Madonna already gave examples of men who were provocative at the same time as her and didn't get the same amount of vilification. If your examples are valid then why aren't hers?

Because she's saying that men never experience it. And I am saying that she is wrong. Hence my examples.

 

 

 

We aren't all taught harsh realities growing up. We are conditioned to what's "normal" and what isn't. That's only beginning to change now in any meaningful way. I think most people hold judgements towards others based on superficial traits wether we realise it or not, in big or small ways. Culture is rampant with stereotypes and exclusive norms, it's only natural that some of that seeps into our consciousness.

Unless we're kept in isolation from the outside world, we are taught harsh realities growing up. Whether we're told about it or just observe it happening around us. And unconsciously giving into stereotypes does not mean we're bigoted towards that group. There is a big difference.

 

 

And what is that unacceptable threshold for men? straight males who act sexual don't get shamed by society at large. It's largely seen as normal, even by people who don't find it acceptable, there's the sense that "it's just how men are". Females are expected to be ladylike and "respect themselves". 

Whenever a straight man expresses his sexuality these days, he's made to feel like he's a misogynist pig. A writer of "Star Trek Into Darkness" had to apologize because he showed a woman in her underwear. Straight men are shamed by society at large in this day and age. They're made to feel petrified of expressing their sexual feelings, because they'll be told they're objectifying women. 

[Fighter 28,798]

Unless we're kept in isolation from the outside world, we are taught harsh realities growing up. Whether we're told about it or just observe it happening around us. And unconsciously giving into stereotypes does not mean we're bigoted towards that group. There is a big difference.

 

People do keep themselves in isolation, we're moving towards an echo chamber culture. 

 

In my opinion most bigotry gets passed down through "subconscious" culture. There isn't much of a difference when the result is the same.

 

 

 

Because she's saying that men never experience it. And I am saying that she is wrong. Hence my examples.

 

Whenever a straight man expresses his sexuality these days, he's made to feel like he's a misogynist pig. The director of the new Star Wars movie had to apologize because he showed a woman in a fucking bra. Straight men are shamed by society at large in this day and age. They're made to feel petrified of expressing their sexual feelings, because they'll be told they're objectifying women. 

 

What she's talking about is pervasive sexism and sexist ageism. Men don't experience that to the degree that it can be considered a social issue by definition. Women are treated as a minority despite the fact they're not a minority statistically speaking.

 

Whenever a straight man expresses his sexuality these days, he's made to feel like he's a misogynist pig. The director of the new Star Wars movie had to apologize because he showed a woman in a fucking bra. Straight men are shamed by society at large in this day and age. They're made to feel petrified of expressing their sexual feelings, because they'll be told they're objectifying women. 

 

These days, as in, the very recent history, thanks to social media, there are vocal minorities that will point out problematic things, that is true, but that doesn't reflect society at large. It continues to be disproportionate in the real practical world.

[Independent Thinker 160]

In my opinion most bigotry gets passed down through "subconscious" culture. There isn't much of a difference when the result is the same.

I think bigotry is too strong of a word to use.

 

 

 

What she's talking about is pervasive sexism and sexist ageism. Men don't experience that to the degree that it can be considered a social issue by definition. Women are treated as a minority despite the fact they're not a minority statistically speaking.

 

 

These days, as in, the very recent history, thanks to social media, there are vocal minorities that will point out problematic things, that is true, but that doesn't reflect society at large. It continues to be disproportionate in the real practical world.

The degree to which someone experiences something over another is irrelevant. The fact that it's happening is enough. If it was a women's issue, they would be the only ones experiencing it. But they're not.

[Fighter 28,798]

The degree to which something happens is not irrelevant. When you have a culture dictated by a majority group and there is pervasive prejudice towards a minority that's a social issue, it's not the other way around.

 

False equivalence used to prove otherwise doesn't make it reality.

[Askeroff 8,109]