Just a thought about Mirwais

[Redha DBL 7,463]

This is a thought i had the other day but i didn't share because i felt like it could be kinda insulting towards Mirwais, but after a second thought it's a Madonna forum and we're supposed to discuss her art the most honest way possible so...

I just came to the conclusion that Mirwais is a one hit pony. He is one of the producer she has worked the most with, he has made many and many tracks for her during a long time span and in the end of the day he gave her only one hit : "Music". All the rest was or a flop or a very average success and "Don't tell me" was already a very good existing demo from Joe Henry so it wasn't difficult to make it sound good. If you're a good producer and you make like 30 songs with the most succesful singer on the planet you're expected to make at least 4 or 5 succesfull hits... i do believe, and this is my personnal opinion, that she overestimates his work, maybe due to the fact that she loves working with him cause they gets along very well together when they're in studio. 

[maddy1111 1,640]

Well, I love Mirwais and all songs they made together, it's the best period of Madonna for me. But maybe, except Music, they were not even aiming for hits?

I dont really think that was a purpose of them working together especially for American Life or later for Madame X, if those songs would have materialized with general public, it would be great, but I think they were absolutely not aiming for huge pop hits breaking charts while working together and both realized that. If so, they would have made just another Music song. It was clearly more aimed to express the art side of Madonna, her political statements, world view, and other thoughts of Madonna. 

If they would have been truly focused on making a chart-topping hit album, then I guess they both would have realized the production of American Life album is not going to do that and changed the direction of an album. Thats why later on, COADF happened where Mirwais work was limited. 

[maddy1111 1,640]

So I completely understand your point in the original post, but simply don't agree with part "If you're a good producer and you make like 30 songs with the most succesful singer on the planet you're expected to make at least 4 or 5 succesfull hits." 

I just think that was not their intention here. We all know that if Madonna wants to make a hit (especially at that time of her career - Frozen, RoL, Music, later on Hung Up), she will just do it. But she could have afford to be a bit more experimental at that time as well, especially with folktronica on American Life. She basically did it ALL with Ray of Light and Music. It was big, successful, praised by critics.. So I understand her "need" to try something different back then, what she saw as expressing her view on the current state of world at that time. And Mirwais was right there, she enjoyed working with him and he was definitely not any close to the "mainstream" and I guess she realized that. But it does not mean he is not a good producer. 

 

But I am really interested hearing here another member's opinions as well

[Redha DBL 7,463]

6 minutes ago, maddy1111 said:

Well, I love Mirwais and all songs they made together, it's the best period of Madonna for me. But maybe, except Music, they were not even aiming for hits?

I dont really think that was a purpose of them working together especially for American Life or later for Madame X, if those songs would have materialized with general public, it would be great, but I think they were absolutely not aiming for huge pop hits breaking charts while working together and both realized that. If so, they would have made just another Music song. It was clearly more aimed to express the art side of Madonna, her political statements, world view, and other thoughts of Madonna. 

If they would have been truly focused on making a chart-topping hit album, then I guess they both would have realized the production of American Life album is not going to do that and changed the direction of an album. Thats why later on, COADF happened where Mirwais work was limited. 

Hmmm i don't agree. You can make a statement while doing a great tune that people will love at the same time. Like a prayer is a perfect example, it has both a political and religious message, Papa Don't preach also has a strong message for example. You just don't go to the studio, being a huge selling act like Madonna, record like 30 songs with a producer at different times of your career and think "Hmm i don't want all those tracks to be successful". While i agree that some tracks are meant to be more personnal and are not made to be successful singles, you cannot say the same for all the tracks they have made and that she has released as singles. She obvioulsy thought those singles would be  succesfull. 

[Redha DBL 7,463]

4 minutes ago, maddy1111 said:

 

I just think that was not their intention here. We all know that if Madonna wants to make a hit (especially at that time of her career - Frozen, RoL, Music, later on Hung Up), she will just do it. 

This is not as simple !! You cannot make a hit on purpose. A hit just happens ! 

[maddy1111 1,640]

Just now, Redha DBL said:

Hmmm i don't agree. You can make a statement while doing a great tune that people will love at the same time. Like a prayer is a perfect example, it has both a political and religious message, Papa Don't preach also has a strong message for example. You just don't go to the studio, being a huge selling act like Madonna, record like 30 songs with a producer at different times of your career and think "Hmm i don't want all those tracks to be successful". While i agree that some tracks are meant to be more personnal and are not made to be successful singles, you cannot say the same for all the tracks they have made and that she has released as singles. She obvioulsy thought those singles would be  succesfull. 

"You can make a statement while doing a great tune that people will love at the same time." 

"You just don't go to the studio, being a huge selling act like Madonna, record like 30 songs with a producer at different times of your career and think "Hmm i don't want all those tracks to be successful"

Yeah, but I guess she was at a point of her life she didn't feel a need to prove herself. That would apply for some 20yo singer, maybe (and she did it back then with Papa and LAP as you stated). But at that time, she basically did it all so she could have afforded to be a bit more experimental without caring about another big ass hit. Of course, if these songs with Mirwais (expect Music) would have materialized with general public, great! But they didn't.. (thinking about it now, we probably would not get COADF if fiasco either AL had never happened). 

And that's probably the reason she called him back for Madame X. She knew she is not making hits, or at least she cannot top current charts, so just decided she will do whatever she needs to do to express herself. 

 

 

[maddy1111 1,640]

5 minutes ago, Redha DBL said:

This is not as simple !! You cannot make a hit on purpose. A hit just happens ! 

Ask Max Martin, please ;) 

[Redha DBL 7,463]

2 minutes ago, maddy1111 said:

"You can make a statement while doing a great tune that people will love at the same time." 

"You just don't go to the studio, being a huge selling act like Madonna, record like 30 songs with a producer at different times of your career and think "Hmm i don't want all those tracks to be successful"

Yeah, but I guess she was at a point of her life she didn't feel a need to prove herself. That would apply for some 20yo singer, maybe (and she did it back then with Papa and LAP as you stated). But at that time, she basically did it all so she could have afforded to be a bit more experimental without caring about another big ass hit. Of course, if these songs with Mirwais (expect Music) would have materialized with general public, great! But they didn't.. (thinking about it now, we probably would not get COADF if fiasco either AL had never happened). 

And that's probably the reason she called him back for Madame X. She knew she is not making hits, or at least she cannot top current charts, so just decided she will do whatever she needs to do to express herself. 

 

 

But even when he makes "light" songs that are not political like "Love profusion" or "Medeillin" it's also very average so my point is that he's not a very talented producer, at least not as much as we all believed. 

[Redha DBL 7,463]

3 minutes ago, maddy1111 said:

Ask Max Martin, please ;) 

Well, even Max Martin made some songs for big namew that were not very succesful, check out the list and you'll see. No one on this planet has the absolute formula to make a hit 100% guarantee. Even Madonna or Michael Jackson...

[maddy1111 1,640]

5 minutes ago, Redha DBL said:

But even when he makes "light" songs that are not political like "Love profusion" or "Medeillin" it's also very average so my point is that he's not a very talented producer, at least not as much as we all believed. 

I agree with Love Profusion, that song always felt kind of "off" for me and really not on the level with other Mirwais production. But I don't think LP was truly meant to be a single, it just happened because of that marketing campaign Madonna had at that time. 

 

Medellin is another story, I agree it could have been produced slightly differently and then it would be a better song, because the structure of a song and constant dropping of the beat doesn't work really well for me, but this was very late in her career so not sure if Medellin is a good example. Most probably, even if the song would have been produced differently, it would not make her another hit. See what happened with Crave, Ghostdown etc. Those are radio friendly songs with absolute no success. 

[maddy1111 1,640]

1 minute ago, Redha DBL said:

Well, even Max Martin made some songs for big namew that were not very succesful, check out the list and you'll see. No one on this planet has the absolute formula to make a hit 100% guarantee. Even Madonna or Michael Jackson...

I have never said that someone om the planet has absolute formula to make a hit. 

I was just saying that Madonna at the time when working with Mirwais especially for AL, most probably realized they are not making another big charting hit. If she  wanted to do that back then, she would have chosen a different producer. As she did for COADF where she was clearly aiming at making another dance floor bop. Not saying it automatically means a hit, nothing is guaranteed, but she has a good marketing sense and ear for music, so I cannot imagine she was expecting COADF to flop and AL to be a huge. Of course, anything can happen and it would be nice for her if it did happen with AL, but the production of that album didn't predict it. 

[Donna 16,883]

Love this discussion going on here.  A great example of people with different opinions able to be civil and respectful.

 

My two cents.  I love Mirwais.  I don't think he's a "one trick pony" as his music with Madonna early on and later does sound different from one another. However someone like Orbit seems to have distinct sound. 

[kesiak 3,042]

1 hour ago, Redha DBL said:

This is a thought i had the other day but i didn't share because i felt like it could be kinda insulting towards Mirwais, but after a second thought it's a Madonna forum and we're supposed to discuss her art the most honest way possible so...

I just came to the conclusion that Mirwais is a one trick pony. He is one of the producer she has worked the most with, he has made many and many tracks for her during a long time span and in the end of the day he gave her only one hit : "Music". All the rest was or a flop or a very average success and "Don't tell me" was already a very good existing demo from Joe Henry so it wasn't difficult to make it sound good. If you're a good producer and you make like 30 songs with the most succesful singer on the planet you're expected to make at least 4 or 5 succesfull hits... i do believe, and this is my personnal opinion, that she overestimates his work, maybe due to the fact that she loves working with him cause they gets along very well together when they're in studio. 

I think this notion is slightly insulting to Madonna who was a co-producer on everything they did together. Also, have you heard Joe Henry's demo? It couldn't be further from the final version, what they did to Don't Tell Me was genius (and was actually a pretty big hit - Top 5 in UK and US). And Mirwais' production on Madame X is very different from his work on Music for example. One trick pony would suggest he keeps doing the same thing/sound over and over which is completely not the case - listen to Impressive Instant, Hollywood, Future Lovers and Medellin - all very different styles and feels. Maybe one "hit" pony is what you had in mind .

[Prayer 14,680]

But the same could be said about William Orbit, for instance or even Stuart Price. They all have their own styles. Stuart + Madonna is magic and his tour versions are some of her best ever, but outside that, his work with other artists can be quite repetitive.

Not to compare, but I think Mirwais did a good job on the "Madame X" album. Much better than Orbit on "MDNA". It wasn't just the same old tricks again (like Orbit in 2012), he really tried new things. The easiest thing would have been doing "Music" 2.0, cause that French electronic dance Daft Punk sound is now standard everywhere, and always works, but they really tried different things.

[Aiwa08 16,292]

I don't love her "Mirwais" eras, but in my opinion he did a few amazing songs: "Paradise (not for me)" "Don't Tell Me" "Love Profusion" "Mother and Father" "Nothing Fails" and "Easy Ride"

[Redha DBL 7,463]

47 minutes ago, kesiak said:

I think this notion is slightly insulting to Madonna who was a co-producer on everything they did together. Also, have you heard Joe Henry's demo? It couldn't be further from the final version, what they did to Don't Tell Me was genius (and was actually a pretty big hit - Top 5 in UK and US). And Mirwais' production on Madame X is very different from his work on Music for example. One trick pony would suggest he keeps doing the same thing/sound over and over which is completely not the case - listen to Impressive Instant, Hollywood, Future Lovers and Medellin - all very different styles and feels. Maybe one "hit" pony is what you had in mind .

Oh damn i was thinking about it just a few minutes ago while being in the shower. I was like "is one trick pony" really the good expression ?!" I suddendly had a doubt, and you've just confirmed i mixed with One HIT pony. Yes, that's excatly what i wanted to say ! Sorry, english is not my natural language and sometimes it's hard to express myself excatly like i want to. 

[Blue Jean 15,640]

2 hours ago, Redha DBL said:

This is a thought i had the other day but i didn't share because i felt like it could be kinda insulting towards Mirwais, but after a second thought it's a Madonna forum and we're supposed to discuss her art the most honest way possible so...

I just came to the conclusion that Mirwais is a one trick pony. He is one of the producer she has worked the most with, he has made many and many tracks for her during a long time span and in the end of the day he gave her only one hit : "Music". All the rest was or a flop or a very average success and "Don't tell me" was already a very good existing demo from Joe Henry so it wasn't difficult to make it sound good. If you're a good producer and you make like 30 songs with the most succesful singer on the planet you're expected to make at least 4 or 5 succesfull hits... i do believe, and this is my personnal opinion, that she overestimates his work, maybe due to the fact that she loves working with him cause they gets along very well together when they're in studio. 

Don't Tell Me  is TOTALLY different to Joe Henry's Stop. It's mainly only the lyrics that are the same. On top of that Mirwais produced Die Another Day which was most definitely a hit.

But that aside I don't believe Mirwais and Madonna were ever trying to create hits together. Mirwais had his own sound/style which tbh, for a producer is much harder to achieve than following trends. He contributed to some of her greatest album tracks  and remember he also worked on Confessions.

[Redha DBL 7,463]

Well, i just think he's overrated as a producer, especially for Madonna. "Music" was genius, there's no denying though.

[Blue Jean 15,640]

2 minutes ago, Redha DBL said:

Well, i just think he's overrated as a producer, especially for Madonna. "Music" was genius, there's no denying though.

Overrated by fans or overrated by Madonna?

[Prayer 14,680]

5 minutes ago, Redha DBL said:

Well, i just think he's overrated as a producer, especially for Madonna. 

Overrated by who? His only international commercial success and mainstream work was with Madonna and his only hits were "Music", "Don't Tell Me" and "Die Another Day". No one else in the pop world wanted to work with him (or he refused), while Orbit and Stuart Price worked with everyone and their mothers after having hits with Madonna.

If anything, Mirwais has always been underrated.

[Mden 2,252]

Music, MX and American Life are her most interesting and daring (musically) and satisfying albums in my opinion. I would prefer her making another collaborative effort with Mirwais than anyone else. I guess we disagree, and that’s ok. I hope after the Celebration Tour Weirdonna returns. Having said that if she decides on giving us another Rebel Heart I wouldn’t mind that at all. But honestly I am not so keen on another Confessions type of album though it was a hit. It’s the era that I’m the least drawn to. 

[Voguerista 11,940]

I love Mirwais. The work (especially for the Music album) he’s done for Madonna says it all! He’s on a genius level and I love his dark, electric quirkiness that sets him apart from anyone in the music field. 

[deathproof 10,649]

Love Mirwais and everything he has done with Madonna. Looking forward to his album, and more importantly, when he goes on tour next year!

[Blue Jean 15,640]

6 minutes ago, deathproof said:

Love Mirwais and everything he has done with Madonna. Looking forward to his album, and more importantly, when he goes on tour next year!

He twiddles knobs on stage?

[Honey Little 4,178]

My favorite on Confessions was with Mirwais, Would You Like to Try. Pure genius.