Aiwa08 16,217 Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 3 hours ago, Ian said: The vast majority of CD players back then couldn't play anything over 78 min and the longest playtime for a CD at the time TIC came out was around 80 min ; that limit started to get longer slowly over the years; also there were quality issues with CDs that played longer than 76 min You are right. I forgot the problem with old CD-Players. Fortunately I never had problems playing commercial CDs longer than 80 minutes with my CD-Players in the 90s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New_Boy 7,887 Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 (edited) ~gone~ Edited December 1, 2020 by Future Lover (see edit history) Blue Jean and Voguerista 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nahual 599 Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 I'm glad they didn't include WTG though. I have nothing against the song, it's just kind of generic and not particularly memorable other than because of its Spanish lyrics, but La Isla Bonita already covers that territory much better. Btw I won't tolerate any disrespect towards Cherish. It's a cute bop. rlittler81 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDNA22 1,196 Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 The immaculate collection track listing is perfect really and in perfect order too If I had to add anything would be Dress You Up and Who's That Girl but not sure it would flow quite so brilliantly Blue Jean 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Jean 15,254 Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 2 hours ago, Future Lover said: I'd gladly split royalties New_Boy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voguerista 11,818 Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 On 11/28/2020 at 5:43 PM, artlover said: I, on the other hand, couldn't care less for Who's That Girl... hahahahaha. I've always liked Causing a Commotion better. I would have loved both of those songs on it! Celebration 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiegoLCL 5,073 Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 The fact that everybody, burning up, angel, dress your up, gambler, true blue, who's that girl, causing a commotion, the look of love, oh father, keep it together, hanky panky (and if you include the more regional singles like physical attraction, love don't live here anymore, over and over, where's the party, spotlight, dear jessie and Spanish eyes) could work as a stronger greatest hits than the ones by her contemporary peers... I'd say legends only. steady75, momosfantasy and louis.exe 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louis.exe 1,992 Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 I love the Immaculate Collection but I gotta say that the track list was missing songs so here's my alternate track list SIDE A "Holiday" "Material Girl" "Express Yourself" "Everybody" "Into The Groove" SIDE B "Like a Virgin" "Open Your Heart" "Papa Don't Preach" "Live To Tell" "Like a Prayer" SIDE C "Lucky Star" "Cherish" "True Blue" "Borderline" "Crazy For You" SIDE D "La Isla Bonita" "Who's That Girl" "Vogue" "Justify My Love" "Rescue Me" geert, Brandon Clark and Levon 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostOrchid 702 Posted December 5, 2020 Author Share Posted December 5, 2020 On 11/28/2020 at 11:56 PM, Brandon Clark said: I definitely think it should've contained Who's That Girl?! It was a #1 hit so to not include it just didn't feel right to me, even now. I know technically it's not the most popular M song but at that time like I said it had been a huge hit for her! For TIC to not contain any hits from the WTG? soundtrack just felt odd to me. But other than that everything was spot on. For a long time I thought True Blue should've been on there but the more I thought about it - you really couldn't include EVERY single from an album - or just do that for 1 album & not the rest. So since all 4 other singles from True Blue were included on TIC it was understandable why they chose to leave it off. But definitely WTG? should have been included with the 2 new songs! They could've made it work somehow I'm sure. The album is still flawless tho it's so easy to nit pick @ it & say it should've been this it should've been that. I am a FIRM SUPPORTER tho that it is PAST TIME for a really nice career spanning box set that puts all the greatest hits compilations to shame! So many artists have REALLY nice box sets - Garth Brooks, The Beatles, Elvis etc..... why not Madonna? Warner & her are LOSING out on SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much profit opportunity by not capitalizing on her VAST back catalogue more than they have. It is the biggest shame above ALL! Maybe one day soon we will get something that we deserve?!? I think they're waiting for majority of her core fanbase to be in their 40s. That's when people have the biggest earning power. And they are able and willing to spend more. When they finally start with these box sets and re-releases, we'll be begging them to stop ? Levon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostOrchid 702 Posted December 5, 2020 Author Share Posted December 5, 2020 On 11/30/2020 at 11:26 AM, steady75 said: Also Vogue and Live To Tell Single edits...so we could reinsert the “ now I know your mine “ part of Into The Groove. That is the single biggest crime on TIC hands down. But then we wouldn't have the full Vogue released anywhere. Tbh, I always felt like Vogue was made specifically for TIC, and that the Keep it Together b-side story was just something they made up so they could justify its premature release on I'm Breathless (which i feel the bosses had said "ok we'll release it but you have to put a hit single on it", and then she pulled Vogue out. I mean, who sits for a recording session of a b-side on the sixth single off an album?!? b-sides are always leftovers from the album sessions) To dig in deeper, I think the Pepsi drama completely changed the course of her career at that time. In my head this was the plan: Release LAP, with LAP, Express Yourself and Cherish singles as they did, but then go on tour September-December. December- release Keep it Together single with the video from the tour footage a la Dress You Up. Take a short break, record new songs for The Immaculate Collection, and release it in November 1990 like they did. So, Oh Father and Dear Jessie singles and videos with recording of the I'm Breathless album was just something she did because she had nothing better to do at the time, filling a space that was already reserved for the LAP tour. So in retrospective, the Pepsi drama was responsible for obviously the BA Tour and for Vogue not being the first single off TIC. I think. Levon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deathproof 10,608 Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 On 11/29/2020 at 11:35 AM, steady75 said: Would a double CD with the original album double new sales and add to her original certification totals? I’d bet it would. It would count as a separate entry. Re-releases with x amount of bonus/additional tracks would render it as separate. steady75 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prayer 14,375 Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 1 hour ago, GhostOrchid said: But then we wouldn't have the full Vogue released anywhere. Tbh, I always felt like Vogue was made specifically for TIC, and that the Keep it Together b-side story was just something they made up so they could justify its premature release on I'm Breathless (which i feel the bosses had said "ok we'll release it but you have to put a hit single on it", and then she pulled Vogue out. I mean, who sits for a recording session of a b-side on the sixth single off an album?!? b-sides are always leftovers from the album sessions) To dig in deeper, I think the Pepsi drama completely changed the course of her career at that time. In my head this was the plan: Release LAP, with LAP, Express Yourself and Cherish singles as they did, but then go on tour September-December. December- release Keep it Together single with the video from the tour footage a la Dress You Up. Take a short break, record new songs for The Immaculate Collection, and release it in November 1990 like they did. So, Oh Father and Dear Jessie singles and videos with recording of the I'm Breathless album was just something she did because she had nothing better to do at the time, filling a space that was already reserved for the LAP tour. So in retrospective, the Pepsi drama was responsible for obviously the BA Tour and for Vogue not being the first single off TIC. I think. Well, not exactly as far as we know. What changed the 1989 "Like A Prayer Tour" plans was "Dick Tracy" and the soundtrack, when she decided to do a full album around it and not only the three songs from the movie. And "Vogue" was believed to be originally a b-side for "Keep It Together" yeah, with minimum budget from the label. "Oh Father" had been her first single not to enter the Top 10 in the US in seven years (since "Holiday" in 1984) and that was considered a big warning sign, especially with dance Janet, Paula and all the younger female artists getting the hits. They knew they needed something extra to push the next single. Shep: “I think at that point they were going to [make it a] b-side” for “Keep It Together,” but once executives heard the track, “The attitude was like, ‘This isn't gonna be a b-side. How can we get this out there?’” https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/pop-shop/6575923/vogue-producer-shep-pettibone-interview Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostOrchid 702 Posted December 5, 2020 Author Share Posted December 5, 2020 9 minutes ago, Prayer said: Well, not exactly as far as we know. What changed the 1989 "Like A Prayer Tour" plans was "Dick Tracy" and the soundtrack, when she decided to do a full album around it and not only the three songs from the movie. And "Vogue" was believed to be originally a b-side for "Keep It Together" yeah, with minimum budget from the label. "Oh Father" had been her first single not to enter the Top 10 in the US in seven years (since "Holiday" in 1984) and that was considered a big warning sign, especially with dance Janet, Paula and all the younger female artists getting the hits. They knew they needed something extra to push the next single. Shep: “I think at that point they were going to [make it a] b-side” for “Keep It Together,” but once executives heard the track, “The attitude was like, ‘This isn't gonna be a b-side. How can we get this out there?’” https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/pop-shop/6575923/vogue-producer-shep-pettibone-interview Yes, you're giving me the facts I already know, and that everybody knows, because they were given to the public. I'm talking about what was going on behind the scene. As for the I'm Breathless album, she didn't abandon the LAP tour because she decided to do the album. The verified fact is that it got canceled because of the Pepsi drama. And my personal opinion is that the album would have never been made had they proceeded with the tour as planned. As for Keep it Together, it didn't need an additional b-side, because the killer remixes were already made, plus the updated shep's radio mix that sounded very 90s and in line with what Paula and the rest were doing at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prayer 14,375 Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 58 minutes ago, GhostOrchid said: Yes, you're giving me the facts I already know, and that everybody knows, because they were given to the public. I'm talking about what was going on behind the scene. As for the I'm Breathless album, she didn't abandon the LAP tour because she decided to do the album. The verified fact is that it got canceled because of the Pepsi drama. And my personal opinion is that the album would have never been made had they proceeded with the tour as planned. As for Keep it Together, it didn't need an additional b-side, because the killer remixes were already made, plus the updated shep's radio mix that sounded very 90s and in line with what Paula and the rest were doing at the time. Alright... you're giving a personal opinion and that's perfectly fine, we do that all the time. But it's just an opinion, not "verified fact" or what necessarily happened behind the scenes. The only verified facts we know are: - Pepsi was going to be the sponsor for the tour and that didn't happen. - "Dick Tracy" filming happened. - "Oh Father" was considered a "flop". - Shep Pettibone was approached by Warner's head of dance music, Craig Kostich, to write and produce an original dance track with Madonna with a "try a let's see what happens with it" approach. That ended up being "Vogue". Confirmed by Shep: https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/pop-shop/6575923/vogue-producer-shep-pettibone-interview - Madonna told last year that she wrote "Vogue" for "Dick Tracy" cause she was dating Warren at the time (I don't know what to make of this really): EgoRod 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostOrchid 702 Posted December 5, 2020 Author Share Posted December 5, 2020 13 minutes ago, Prayer said: Alright... you're giving a personal opinion and that's perfectly fine, we do that all the time. But it's just an opinion, not "verified fact" or what necessarily happened behind the scenes. The only verified facts we know are: - Pepsi was going to be the sponsor for the tour and that didn't happen. - "Dick Tracy" filming happened. - "Oh Father" was considered a "flop". - Shep Pettibone was approached by Warner's head of dance music, Craig Kostich, to write and produce an original dance track with Madonna with a "try a let's see what happens with it" approach. That ended up being "Vogue". Confirmed by Shep: https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/pop-shop/6575923/vogue-producer-shep-pettibone-interview - Madonna told last year that she wrote "Vogue" for "Dick Tracy" cause she was dating Warren at the time (I don't know what to make of this really): So she said it was written for Dick Tracy, and the general knowledge is that it was written for Keep it Together. The point seems to be that we are given information that are not necessarily what really happened. And if you look closely at the dates, the principal photography for the film started (february 1989) before the LAP Tour got canceled (march 1989), and Madonna was cast way before that. so the original plan was to do the film and then rehearse and go on tour. I believe Shep when he says he was approached with a "let's see what happens" attitude, but i believe they were aiming it for The Immaculate Collection. And btw, I don't think she released Oh Father with any ambition for it to be a chart topper. It's just not that kind of song. I think she knew it's not going to do as good as the rest and she was fine with it. Just look at the video, she wanted to tell a story. Same as for example Human Nature. But she could affoard to do that, have a row of chart toppers, followed by a row of low-key personal songs. With Oh Father she was toning it down for what is to come. Besides, you can tell if they aim for a chart topper or not when you see the formats of the single release. Oh Father only got a crappy sleeveless 7" with no real bonus content. It simply wasn't aimed for success to begin with, it was aimed to tell a story. BTW thanks for that interview clip, I haven't heard it before. Prayer and Levon 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kesiak 3,036 Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 1 hour ago, GhostOrchid said: So she said it was written for Dick Tracy, and the general knowledge is that it was written for Keep it Together. The point seems to be that we are given information that are not necessarily what really happened. And if you look closely at the dates, the principal photography for the film started (february 1989) before the LAP Tour got canceled (march 1989), and Madonna was cast way before that. so the original plan was to do the film and then rehearse and go on tour. I believe Shep when he says he was approached with a "let's see what happens" attitude, but i believe they were aiming it for The Immaculate Collection. According to Shep, The Immaculate Collection and his work/mixing on it was very last minute, "a rush job" as he put it. That wouldn't make sense if "Vogue" had been written with it in mind, many months before. deathproof and momosfantasy 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steady75 9,570 Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 So yall out here telling me that Vogue wasn’t written as a rescue package for Keep It Together cause of the Oh Father floppage, only released because M was convinced by David Fincher to make it a single? Hmmm momosfantasy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostOrchid 702 Posted December 5, 2020 Author Share Posted December 5, 2020 5 hours ago, steady75 said: So yall out here telling me that Vogue wasn’t written as a rescue package for Keep It Together cause of the Oh Father floppage, only released because M was convinced by David Fincher to make it a single? Hmmm Had Warner wanted Oh Father to do better on charts they would have released it on more formats than just the sleeveless 7" and a MC and with no new previously released material. Back in the day ONLY physical sales counted towards Billboard 100, not airplay. So when promoting a single they make a choice: 1) singles released to top the charts (with tons of formats, nice package, remixes, b-sides, bonus content etc. Think Like a Prayer or Express Yourself. 2) singles aimed at radio which are released to help the album sales. There was virtually nothing appealing for fans to make them want to buy the Oh Father single. And Warner knew that. It was released either because it was Madonna's wish because of the video, or because Warner wanted it to push the more mature audience into buying the LAP album. Under those circumstances, reaching no. 16 doesn't seem like a flop to me. Had they wanted it higher, the single release would have been marketed differently. If you examine Warner's promortion for all her albums, it's always 4 singles initially (more or less depending if the album needs aditional promorion or not). For the LAP album it was always going to be Like a Prayer, Express Yourself, Cherish and Keep it Together. Oh Father wasn't even planned and noone expected anything from it either. So #16 was a surprise success for them. Prayer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostOrchid 702 Posted December 5, 2020 Author Share Posted December 5, 2020 6 hours ago, kesiak said: According to Shep, The Immaculate Collection and his work/mixing on it was very last minute, "a rush job" as he put it. That wouldn't make sense if "Vogue" had been written with it in mind, many months before. Maybe last minute Warner decided to have the album remixed in Q sound. But I'm sure they were planning for the album's new songs way in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian 2,262 Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 27 minutes ago, GhostOrchid said: Back in the day ONLY physical sales counted towards Billboard 100, not airplay. So when promoting a single they make a choice: 1) singles released to top the charts (with tons of formats, nice package, remixes, b-sides, bonus content etc. Think Like a Prayer or Express Yourself. 2) singles aimed at radio which are released to help the album sales. This is not true, airplay has been part of the H100's points component -along with sales- since way before M came to chart, even in the 60s they gathered airplay data for the chart but the info was not publicly available at the time. deathproof 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prayer 14,375 Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 28 minutes ago, GhostOrchid said: Had Warner wanted Oh Father to do better on charts they would have released it on more formats than just the sleeveless 7" and a MC and with no new previously released material. Back in the day ONLY physical sales counted towards Billboard 100, not airplay. So when promoting a single they make a choice: 1) singles released to top the charts (with tons of formats, nice package, remixes, b-sides, bonus content etc. Think Like a Prayer or Express Yourself. 2) singles aimed at radio which are released to help the album sales. There was virtually nothing appealing for fans to make them want to buy the Oh Father single. And Warner knew that. It was released either because it was Madonna's wish because of the video, or because Warner wanted it to push the more mature audience into buying the LAP album. Under those circumstances, reaching no. 16 doesn't seem like a flop to me. Had they wanted it higher, the single release would have been marketed differently. If you examine Warner's promortion for all her albums, it's always 4 singles initially (more or less depending if the album needs aditional promorion or not). For the LAP album it was always going to be Like a Prayer, Express Yourself, Cherish and Keep it Together. Oh Father wasn't even planned and noone expected anything from it either. So #16 was a surprise success for them. Makes sense. Maybe Warner just released in the US cause the video was ready to go and to please Madonna? Maybe expecting some kind of "Live To Tell" lucky situation: a 6-minute dark piano ballad turning into a commercial hit. It's interesting how Madonna, Patrick Leonard and David Fincher believed in the song: In a 2009 interview with The Guardian, Fincher recalled: “I had kinda talked Madonna into releasing Oh Father as a single and we did this video and were very happy with the video – but nobody ever saw it because the song wasn’t a hit.” https://todayinmadonnahistory.com/2018/11/11/today-in-madonna-history-november-11-1989-2/ I can't find it now but I think I saw or read an interview with Patrick Leonard saying "Oh Father" was his favorite song they did together. GhostOrchid 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostOrchid 702 Posted December 5, 2020 Author Share Posted December 5, 2020 Just now, Ian said: This is not true, airplay has been part of the H100's points component -along with sales- since way before M came to to chart, even in the 60s they gathered airplay for the chart but the info was not publicly available at the time. Ok my bad, I confused it with the UK model. But what was true for Hot 100 up until 1998 was that a song could not chart unless it was released as a physical single regardless if it had airplay or not. that is why No Doubt's 1997 Don't Speak didn't even chart on the Hot 100 despite being the most successful song of the decade. But the majority of points on Hot 100 still come from sales. Still, Oh Father got that crappy physical release just so that it could appear on different charts as part of the promotion and not because it was promoted to become a hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostOrchid 702 Posted December 5, 2020 Author Share Posted December 5, 2020 16 minutes ago, Prayer said: Makes sense. Maybe Warner just released in the US cause the video was ready to go and to please Madonna? Maybe expecting some kind of "Live To Tell" lucky situation: a 6-minute dark piano ballad turning into a commercial hit. It's interesting how Madonna, Patrick Leonard and David Fincher believed in the song: In a 2009 interview with The Guardian, Fincher recalled: “I had kinda talked Madonna into releasing Oh Father as a single and we did this video and were very happy with the video – but nobody ever saw it because the song wasn’t a hit.” https://todayinmadonnahistory.com/2018/11/11/today-in-madonna-history-november-11-1989-2/ I can't find it now but I think I saw or read an interview with Patrick Leonard saying "Oh Father" was his favorite song they did together. Exactly. every single release has its budget, and with this one they probably thought okay let's give her what she wants and see if this can be the next Live to Tell. If not, oh well, didn't cost us much anyway. Prayer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShantiAshtangi 257 Posted December 6, 2020 Share Posted December 6, 2020 The biggest sacrilege with TIC is the hideous version of Like A Prayer. The thought that there are people who only have TIC as their only Madonna album and only have this ugly remix of Like A Prayer in their collection is hard to bear. xpressyourself and GhostOrchid 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xpressyourself 143 Posted December 6, 2020 Share Posted December 6, 2020 1 hour ago, ShantiAshtangi said: The biggest sacrilege with TIC is the hideous version of Like A Prayer. The thought that there are people who only have TIC as their only Madonna album and only have this ugly remix of Like A Prayer in their collection is hard to bear. That's exactly why I chose to simply include the original version (plus Act of Contrition) when I re-configured TUC for my personal CD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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