What did M's sound engineering team do differently with IGTYS, CT vs S&S, MDNA, RH, MX live albums?

[madgic2005 82]

It really annoys me how fake (obviously dubbed over) M sounds on all of her live albums since IGTYS and CT. Her live vocals during RIT and CT weren't perfect but they were able to make her sound amazing. Why couldn't her team do the same thing with S&S, MDNA, RH, MX tour live album? Her live vocals weren't THAT bad during those tours.

The dub sounds especially bad on S&S's Borderline and LAP - I know M is a perfectionist so how did it manage to get approved by her?

[androiduser 2,464]

One thing that truly surprises me is that Madonna never really cared about being the best vocalist, and she could have worked on her vocals with a coach, like many other great vocalists... but then in the final edits, all the vocals get such an unnatural sound with all the smoothing and the corrections.

I know she's a perfectionist, but wouldn't it make more sense to work on the live vocals with a coach, and then need minimal editing and mixing effects, for an overall better result...

[musicinferno 3,687]

Well to be fair, Kevin took over as musical director starting with S&S where he used album vocals watering out her live vocals in the background and they kinda carried over onto the video too. He sucks. 

[Honey Little 3,996]

1 hour ago, musicinferno said:

Well to be fair, Kevin took over as musical director starting with S&S where he used album vocals watering out her live vocals in the background and they kinda carried over onto the video too. He sucks. 

Agree 

[Fabiolous 5,491]

One thing I hope she stops doing is record the show at the very end of the tour. Her vocals are always better at the beginning. She was amazing during RHT and then she got to Asia and Australia and you can tell her vocal chords were strained. The live album is probably reflecting that.

S&S sounds fake because it's completely re-recorded in studio. The real vocals were to embarrassing to release, she sounded like me at karaoke during that tour.

Madame X sounds pretty close to the actual live thing if you ask me? Same with MDNA, the vocals don't sound too fake to my ears, but the audience background noise does.

[Jackie 8,072]

Ummmmmmm have you not heard her SS live vocals lol - there's a reason they were melodyned to an inch of their life lol 

COAD not so sure - she was not too bad in that tour and same with MDNA!

[Blue Jean 15,254]

To answer the question, they started overproducing everything. Not just the vocals. They added instruments in Madame X that weren’t even heard at the shows. Her tour videos have become more “films” in recent years more than just a concert video. They even add in things that didn’t happen at the shows (eg Vatican speech) as well as lots of slow motion effects. I personally hate it. But tbh we are lucky we even get filmed versions, most artists don’t do them at all.

[Blue Jean 15,254]

4 hours ago, androiduser said:

I know she's a perfectionist, but wouldn't it make more sense to work on the live vocals with a coach, and then need minimal editing and mixing effects, for an overall better result...

Yes it would. But age has probably seen her voice weaken. It probably takes a lot more work for her now than 20 years ago to keep it in shape. She does not seem to care about that or doesn’t see it as a priority. Only 1995-2005 did she care about pristine vocals.

[Blue Jean 15,254]

2 hours ago, Fabiolous said:

Madame X sounds pretty close to the actual live thing if you ask me?

Maybe on some songs but in the live recording Frozen and Extreme Occident sound like they were re-recorded in the studio. The emotional impact of the vocals is non existent compared to hearing it live. Go and listen to audience recordings and you’ll hear what I mean. I also think at the shows themselves they used a lot of pre-recorded vocals in the uptempo songs. She also uses live pitch correction on her voice.

[Blue Jean 15,254]

48 minutes ago, Jackie said:

 

COAD not so sure - she was not too bad in that tour and same with MDNA!

Her vocals were good on Confessions but that was definitely when the trend of tweaking live vocals for the video really started. I remember the meltdowns over it on Madonnamad. Little did we know that was only the beginning. I think Sticky was the worse 1) because she was dancing so much and 2) she wasn’t as involved in the editing as she usually is.

[Jackie 8,072]

6 minutes ago, Blue Jean said:

Her vocals were good on Confessions but that was definitely when the trend of tweaking live vocals for the video really started. I remember the meltdowns over it on Madonnamad. Little did we know that was only the beginning. I think Sticky was the worse 1) because she was dancing so much and 2) she wasn’t as involved in the editing as she usually is.

Yes agree - oh no shade to Madonna for SS - it was pure athleticism the entire show - no way she was gonna be in tune and dance like she did! 

[MattyMads 5,515]

In regards to Sticky & Sweet she wasn't involved at all in the making of that she was too busy with W.E, I think if she was fully invested in the sticky & sweet release we would have had vocals more in line with the MDNA & Rebel Heart release more live sounding.

[Sheridan1980 1,099]

MDNA's voice sounds really good and real comparing to S&S. I can't watch the offcial DVD. I prefer the videos from YouTube, especially the soundboards from Lisbon and Athens. 

[wtg1987 10,167]

The ciao Italia video release ( Despite being one of the best sounding concerts I’ve heard ) was also over dubbed a lot with audience noise so it’s not exclusive to just 2004 onwards - the virgin tour also im Sure - the rebel heart blu ray sounds awful - they can’t even get the basic 5.1 audio right ( the vocals should have been confined to the centre channel but instead they spread the them over the front 3 speakers left , right and centre 🙄

[WeYo 672]

I had always a feeling that M is just captivated by the new age engines ... and what one or another can do and produce. Some of course have good impact and well .. some don't. She wants to explore and she's allowed to do so -- but like we know it doesn't work on live shows very much but end result still for me (personally) is enough (it is what it is) --- at least we get official release  (what makes less urge for getting official release). But yeah ... when I always watch DWT, I always wonder why she changed all of that for what we get now --- IMO that "DVD" has a great "vocal use" not so heavy auto-tune/dubbed re-recorded vocals feel.... and YES more alive band, than what we see and hear now 

This is just my POV ... 

[luluthecat 1,114]

4 hours ago, Fabiolous said:

One thing I hope she stops doing is record the show at the very end of the tour. Her vocals are always better at the beginning. She was amazing during RHT and then she got to Asia and Australia and you can tell her vocal chords were strained. The live album is probably reflecting that.

S&S sounds fake because it's completely re-recorded in studio. The real vocals were to embarrassing to release, she sounded like me at karaoke during that tour.

Madame X sounds pretty close to the actual live thing if you ask me? Same with MDNA, the vocals don't sound too fake to my ears, but the audience background noise does.

I never understand why they don’t just take a soundboard recording of each night and just stitch the best vocal takes together. 

[luluthecat 1,114]

One of the issues is that they don’t make a separate audio for the live album. Maybe the crowd noises make more sense when you’re watching on a big screen with surround sound. Listening with headphones it just sounds ridiculous. Also never understand why they don’t edit the talking bit eg. Unapologetic Bitch, makes absolutely no sense when listening as an album

[MCL_1993 1,847]

The thing is: Stuart knew how to get the most even out of a very weak vocal because he produced his sound live as he went and it shows from the early 2000s onward. Actually, honestly, the vocals for all the IGTTYAS songs from the live album sound so clean… IDK how to explain this because I am not a producer... Stuart had a certain quality to his sound. You could tell that it was Sennheiser who made the mic Madonna is singing into and Stuart worked his magic live on stage. When you extract those vocals - even with a free AI - you still got a decent vocal stem. You can just tell. That weirdly high quality sound is present on the confessions DVD, for instance. Especially when she takes a breath. You can just hear that she was singing live (although these were mostly rehearsal takes mixed and produced wonderfully) and the effects were done live. And you can hear it in every rehearsal and every performance that she has had Stuart in her team.
 

When Kevin took over, it went a little south. Although, Kylie Dean who sang most of M's parts for the SST 2009 blended perfectly with M's tired vocals. I know that some people think Kevin destroyed Madonna's touring career BUT there is a reason the Sticky & Sweet Tour became the best selling (Fuck You, Taylor Swift). In the first leg, he only began using more pre-recorded stuff towards the end of the tour but mostly relied on heavy studio backing tracks. He said in an interview that the high quality hardware he used for Sticky gave him the most consistent sound in his carreer and talked a lot about the mixing of the DVD.

“You know, I didn't really have a say in that. I approached it in a similar fashion as Stuart did with the previous tours. I took a good vocal performance and mixed it with the soundboard from Argentina but we quickly ran into the issue of her being out of tune a lot during those shows. You need to understand that we were almost at the end of the tour and Madonna's voice wasn't getting enough rest during the south american dates. So, we decided to pitch her up a little to mix better with the rehearsal takes. Then when the label reviewed it, Madonna's tour director requested a clean-up of all the instrumentals we recorded during filming of the footage in Buenos Aires. It was very unfortunate because after that clean-up, everything sounded more studio-esque, which apparently, Madonna aimed for. With our PA system, it was very easy to work on that tour because our sound was very consistent across the board. If we didn't run into issues with the venue or technical stuff screwing us over - which rarely happened, anyway- the show in Berlin would sound just as good as the show in Los Angeles, for instance. I also did a version of the soundboard using stems from shows in which she gave good vocal performances and played it to her but she didn't like it very much. So, at the end of the day, a more artificial sound was preferred over a more rough mix. Sadly, for the audience noise, I had to use stock recordings to get it right sometimes. “
 

Fun Fact: I was today years old when I realized that the opening of 'Music' from the SST DVD was not a fuck-up by DJ Enferno because he mixed the samples live and was slightly off beat. It does not go 'Put your hands up for De-New York', they changed it as an agterthought during the production of the DVD audio and it says 'Lift your hands up, ArgentiNAAH'. Please tell me I am not the only one to notice after 15 years.

Also, why did the use the fucked up lyric during Devil 'led along the legde ISH much higher than it seems' WTF! They went so overboard with the production and let THAT slip

[luluthecat 1,114]

Don’t forget about the Drowned World Tour, my audio rip from the dvd is stunning! Think it might be my favourite live album 

[Prayer 14,361]

She's been doing it since "The Virgin Tour" VHS release. If we compare the news or fan recorded footage with the official release, it was obviously retouched for the final release.

I think it's a matter of trying to present the best show possible instead of trying to "fake" or fool anyone. She knows herself she's not the best vocalist ever.

"Sticky" was all over the place vocally, don't know if it was the new musical director, or the lack of Donna to support her with backing vocals, or her being in a bad place personally, or too much movement, but vocally it wasn't great. I didn't like that they used her studio live versions vocals for the official release but wasn't that surprising really. Vocally it's her worst tour.

[Blue Jean 15,254]

35 minutes ago, luluthecat said:

I never understand why they don’t just take a soundboard recording of each night and just stitch the best vocal takes together. 

I always wondered that too. For eg, with Rebel Heart the vocals were far superior at the start of the tour. With todays technology they can easily record multitracks of every single show if they want to with the click of a button.

[Jackie 8,072]

1 hour ago, MCL_1993 said:

The thing is: Stuart knew how to get the most even out of a very weak vocal because he produced his sound live as he went and it shows from the early 2000s onward. Actually, honestly, the vocals for all the IGTTYAS songs from the live album sound so clean… IDK how to explain this because I am not a producer... Stuart had a certain quality to his sound. You could tell that it was Sennheiser who made the mic Madonna is singing into and Stuart worked his magic live on stage. When you extract those vocals - even with a free AI - you still got a decent vocal stem. You can just tell. That weirdly high quality sound is present on the confessions DVD, for instance. Especially when she takes a breath. You can just hear that she was singing live (although these were mostly rehearsal takes mixed and produced wonderfully) and the effects were done live. And you can hear it in every rehearsal and every performance that she has had Stuart in her team.
 

When Kevin took over, it went a little south. Although, Kylie Dean who sang most of M's parts for the SST 2009 blended perfectly with M's tired vocals. I know that some people think Kevin destroyed Madonna's touring career BUT there is a reason the Sticky & Sweet Tour became the best selling (Fuck You, Taylor Swift). In the first leg, he only began using more pre-recorded stuff towards the end of the tour but mostly relied on heavy studio backing tracks. He said in an interview that the high quality hardware he used for Sticky gave him the most consistent sound in his carreer and talked a lot about the mixing of the DVD.

“You know, I didn't really have a say in that. I approached it in a similar fashion as Stuart did with the previous tours. I took a good vocal performance and mixed it with the soundboard from Argentina but we quickly ran into the issue of her being out of tune a lot during those shows. You need to understand that we were almost at the end of the tour and Madonna's voice wasn't getting enough rest during the south american dates. So, we decided to pitch her up a little to mix better with the rehearsal takes. Then when the label reviewed it, Madonna's tour director requested a clean-up of all the instrumentals we recorded during filming of the footage in Buenos Aires. It was very unfortunate because after that clean-up, everything sounded more studio-esque, which apparently, Madonna aimed for. With our PA system, it was very easy to work on that tour because our sound was very consistent across the board. If we didn't run into issues with the venue or technical stuff screwing us over - which rarely happened, anyway- the show in Berlin would sound just as good as the show in Los Angeles, for instance. I also did a version of the soundboard using stems from shows in which she gave good vocal performances and played it to her but she didn't like it very much. So, at the end of the day, a more artificial sound was preferred over a more rough mix. Sadly, for the audience noise, I had to use stock recordings to get it right sometimes. “
 

Fun Fact: I was today years old when I realized that the opening of 'Music' from the SST DVD was not a fuck-up by DJ Enferno because he mixed the samples live and was slightly off beat. It does not go 'Put your hands up for De-New York', they changed it as an agterthought during the production of the DVD audio and it says 'Lift your hands up, ArgentiNAAH'. Please tell me I am not the only one to notice after 15 years.

Also, why did the use the fucked up lyric during Devil 'led along the legde ISH much higher than it seems' WTF! They went so overboard with the production and let THAT slip

Wow thanks for sharing that interview snippet - so interesting to understand the process - so that confirms he didn’t desire anything - she and the label wanted a particular sound.

[Aiwa08 16,217]

2 hours ago, wtg1987 said:

 the rebel heart blu ray sounds awful - they can’t even get the basic 5.1 audio right ( the vocals should have been confined to the centre channel but instead they spread the them over the front 3 speakers left , right and centre 🙄

Errr… No. In videos with music as audio (or even in Dolby Atmos music files), it is normal for the voice to be played through the front speakers to sound “natural” and not like a movie where the voice is only played through the central speaker.

I’m not talking about musical films like “Grease” or “West Side Story”, but rather concert videos, video clip compilations, etc.

[Confessions Lightside 2,131]

12 hours ago, Fabiolous said:

S&S sounds fake because it's completely re-recorded in studio. The real vocals were to embarrassing to release, she sounded like me at karaoke during that tour.

I agree. I was shocked when I heard her original voice:

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by RUADJAI
removed image that wasnt working. (see edit history)

[drownedworld 110]

The worst is Madame X, it sounds like recorded with an average phone

I wonder the same and also i think her best concert (picture) editing is Sticky and Sweet Tour, the blue instagram filters, the extreme lightning to hide her scars and the way each scene changes so quickly that you almost can have an epilepsy attack will always be unwatchable (MDNA, RH, MX)

Her MDNA special concert on L' Olympia is way better, that's watchable

I REALLY wish the team who edited Taylor Swift's Reputation Tour edited Madonna's concerts. i'd even like her to make that happen now, a re-release of her tours, completely and newly re-edited by people who truly know how to edit enjoyable concerts

also gotta say that Madonna is not the only one with horrible live albums, somehow many artists end up hiring people who ruin these releases, i even hate the obsession with the editors to make the crowds screams and noises appear to 'prove' that it was lit, it's annoying to hear screams, specially on the MDNA and RH live albums where everybody in the crowd is so loud

A live album should be just the artist and the band, maybe some crowd interactions but just a bit and in special cases, in my own opinion 

Edited August 25, 2023 by drownedworld (see edit history)